Clinton McKinzie, Mystery/Suspense Author : Life After Publication! 4/24/03

Mary Rosenblum

Hello, everyone.

Welcome to our Professional Connection Live Interview.

Tonight we're visiting with Clinton McKinzie, author of three fast paced mystery/suspense novels AND a fellow Rottweiler owner, I might add.

CLINTON McKINZIE is the author of The Edge of Justice, Point of Law, and Trial By Ice and Fire, soon to be released by Bantam Dell. He was raised in Santa Monica, CA and now lives in Colorado with his wife, son, and dog! Prior to becoming a writer, he worked as a peace officer and deputy district attorney in Denver. His passion is climbing alpine walls and his books are great. Visit his great website at www.clintonmckinzie.com

Clinton, welcome, glad you could make it...and I apologize for misspelling your name on the Calendar page!

Clinton McKinzie

I'm happy to be here. This is a great way to do an interview.

I actually get to think for a few seconds before I speak.

Mary Rosenblum

It is fun, isn't it? I've really become very fond of my online 'live' sessions!

So I'm curious. Are your books described as mystery, crime, suspense...or a combination?

Clinton McKinzie

A combination. I wanted to give a sense of the thrill of rock climbing as well

as the thrill of the courtroom and waiting for a jury verdict.

Mary Rosenblum

I'm really looking forward to the rock climbing scenes. I've done just enough to appreciate them!

Clinton McKinzie

Those are my favorite scenes. I like doing the "research."

Mary Rosenblum

You certainly have the credentials for the crime and law enforcement parts of your books! I'm envious.

I spend a lot of time asking cop friends questions! So how did you get started writing? Which came first?

Clinton McKinzie

I've always dreamed about it, but never had the confidence

until I was totally burnt out from prosecuting child sex assaults

and knew I needed to take a break. So I took a 6 month leave

and just went for it.

Mary Rosenblum

Wow. You had a tough job in the legal side of things!

I'm not surprised that you burned out.

ccollier

Clinton, do you make notes of the most famous murder trials

and stories in our news so often now?

Clinton McKinzie

It sure felt that way. For a while I was doing a jury trial 2x a month.

Mary Rosenblum

Wow! That's a LOT.

Clinton McKinzie

Writing should be less stressful.

Mary Rosenblum

So DO you take notes? I didn't mean to interrupt the question that was just asked.

Clinton McKinzie

I do.

I keep extensive files of every article that catches my attention

and I talk to my old colleagues a lot and listen to their stories.

For instance, a good friend, who is 50 years old and a little overweight,

tackled a defendant trying to escape last week and made the newspapers. That would make a great scene.

Mary Rosenblum

Do you ever worry that somebody will sue your, or claim loudly and publicly that you used their private details? For example your friend?

Clinton McKinzie

I let the publisher worry about that. But I try to change enough that no one will

have much evidence of libel or slander or anything like that.

But I trust my friends to be amused.

Mary Rosenblum

Did you start with novel length work, Clinton, or did you write short stories first?

Clinton McKinzie

My first novel was the first thing I'd written (other than legal briefs) since junior high.

Mary Rosenblum

I'm impressed.

bingocliff

How long did it take you to write your first book?

Clinton McKinzie

If you read the book, you might not be that impressed.

I took a six month leave of absense, so 6 months was all I had.

I started mailing queries to agents at the end of that period.

Mary Rosenblum

That's fast, Clinton. That's about how long I take, and I'm faster than most.

Did they all take about that length of time?

Clinton McKinzie

It would be nice for me to have more time.

I think I need it, but the publishers have deadlines.

Mary Rosenblum

Deadlines...ah yes. Did you sell the novel to the first publisher you queried?

Clinton McKinzie

My agent sent it to 6 or 7 editors at different houses,

then he created a lot of artificial and probably undeserved enthusiasm

by telling them they had 1 week to read it and make an offer.

Mary Rosenblum

You have a good agent. :-) And your books have all the hooks to tempt an editor

with your rock climbing, and your background in both law enforcement and the trial side of things. I'm not

surprised that they snapped you up!

Clinton McKinzie

Blush. I was lucky to have a background that appeared commercial.

Mary Rosenblum

Be glad!

paja

How would you use the extra time to work on a novel if you had it?

Clinton McKinzie

I would edit and re-edit. Every time I pick up

a copy of that first book I want to start rewriting and changing things.

Mary Rosenblum

You know, that --always-- happens. Bad idea to read your previous books! :-)

Clinton McKinzie

Yes. I refuse to read from them.

Mary Rosenblum

I know that a lot of people here probably want to know how you found your agent. Did you simply query agents?

Clinton McKinzie

I did. I got a book called Literary Marketplace or The Guide to Literary Agents

and went through that. I probably queried 20-30 all together.

The main thing is to write the best query letter possible.

Tell them why your book will sell and make the agent some bucks.

Mary Rosenblum

You're a great example of 'seat of the pants' getting started, Clinton! And there's also the Association of Authors’ Representatives web page

which has contact info for agents.

http://www.aar-online.org/index.html

So those of you who need agents, start practicing those gripping query letters!

Thanks, Clinton. I think you bring everyone hope! :-)

Clinton McKinzie

You really have to have an agent to get a publisher to read your book.

rupbert

At what point did you decide you needed an agent?

Clinton McKinzie

I read somewhere that you simply had to have one. And from what I know now, it's really true.

Most publishers no longer have anyone reading the "slush pile".

They just return the manuscripts or throw them away.

Mary Rosenblum

Sadly this is true

paja

After your book was sold, did you receive the publicity etc. that you expected?

Clinton McKinzie

Again, I was really lucky to have a publisher who backed me up.

I've heard this is rare nowadays, that usually they just put you out there on the shelves

and see what happens. So I was really lucky that they did --

newspaper ads and some radio, as well as setting up some interviews.

The Denver Post wanted to a brief one, but I took the reporter climbing

so they brought out photographers and ended up doing a huge piece.

Mary Rosenblum

What a great idea! I wonder just how scared the reporter was?

Clinton McKinzie

Not as scared as me.

I was hung over and later realized I forgot to buckle my harness.

Mary Rosenblum

Forgot to buckle your harness?

Oooh, I can just see the headlines!

Clinton McKinzie

That would have really sold some books!

Local author falls to death while doing interview.

Mary Rosenblum

Your estate would have done well!

There is no bad publicity after all.

Clinton McKinzie

My wife is very disappointed.

Mary Rosenblum

I hope she's not looking over your shoulder. :-)

senicynt

I noticed that your books all have climbers on the covers.

Clinton McKinzie

Actually, she is.

Yeah. I had nothing to do with the art

or the titles for that matter. They laughed at all my suggestions.

Mary Rosenblum

Really? Huh. And here I was being impressed that SOMEBODY can do cool titles anyway! heheh.

So what were your titles?

Clinton McKinzie

My title was FEEDING THE RAT.

It's a climbing term, meaning, like, to get a fix.

They didn't think female readers would go for that.

Mary Rosenblum

I'm laughing! Sounds like the working title of my current

SF novelette which I KNOW isn't going to fly!

Clinton McKinzie

What is it?

Mary Rosenblum

Clinton, I'm embarrassed! It's rats in orbit, but it will be something MUCH cooler when it hits Asimov's!! Promise!

Clinton McKinzie

I like it!

Mary Rosenblum

Gardner won't!

Guarantee you!

So I'm going to put you on the spot here...and ask you a question that I don't usually ask writers.

I’m going to ask if your books have indeed sold well? You can tell me NYB if you want! Not Your Business...

Clinton McKinzie

No, I'm happy to answer. If they hadn't sold well, I would

tell you NYB.

The hardcover last year of book 1 sold about 30,000, and they have 240,000 paperbacks

on the shelves right now. The same amount is about to be released for book 2,

but I don't have any idea what they returns will be like.

I'm told if it's less that 50%, you're doing well.

Mary Rosenblum

My dear, you are indeed selling well, and 50% of 240,000 is over 100,00 which

does indeed make you a golden child! Congratulations!!

Those are super numbers!

Clinton McKinzie

We'll have to see. They could get swamped with books coming back still.

Mary Rosenblum

Bet not. :-)

Clinton McKinzie

Crossing my fingers.

Mary Rosenblum

Do you want to talk about numbers here a bit? I know that we've got people in the audience

who are on the other side of selling that first novel, and numbers don't really

mean much yet. I wish I'd known more about it when I sold my first book!

Clinton McKinzie

I do too. Sure.

Mary Rosenblum

I was wondering if you could offer some advice for what

new sellers can expect as far as advance and sales?

Clinton McKinzie

For advances, I'm told 10k is common.

Not exactly a life changing amount of money.

But I've also heard of authors getting a million or more for their first book

and I generally hate those authors' guts.

Mary Rosenblum

Me, too! Unless it's me. :-) And actually

it's as low as about 5,000 for a paperback original.

Clinton McKinzie

Yes, that sounds right.

bingocliff

What assistance did you get from your wife? Did she take part in the book?

Clinton McKinzie

She was a great reader.

But wasn't happy with some of it.

I changed it from the third person to the first in a late draft,

and she found the sex scenes a little strange to read

from an "I" point of view. But she found it funny.

She's not a character, though.

I'm not sure if she wants to be. I'll have to ask her.

Mary Rosenblum

I'm laughing about the sex scene thing. I don't know about the character thing. Could be hard on the marriage if you kill her off. :-)

Clinton McKinzie

Definitely! That would be a bad idea.

lilithangel

Advance is against sales, right? What if sales don't

hit that amount?

Clinton McKinzie

Yes, advance is against sales.

If the sales don't hit that amount, it's no big deal, you still get to

keep the money. But you look really good if you "earn out" the advance.

Mary Rosenblum

And you will probably have a very short tenure with the publisher

if you DON"T pay out the advance on more than one book!

Clinton McKinzie

Now you're scaring me. I'm going to start worrying about my returns.

Mary Rosenblum

You're WAY beyond that, don't worry! :-)

paige

Clinton, Did you have to take any writing courses to reduce the possibility of too much "legalese" and develop a story telling voice?

Clinton McKinzie

That's a really good question.

I guess I never really learned to talk too much like a lawyer

since I skipped so many classes in law school in order to go climbing.

But that definitely should be a consideration. I believe that you should think

about your audience all the time. Always be worrying about what they'll think of each

scene and sentence.

Mary Rosenblum

Actually, I have a trial lawyer friend who writes mystery and SF. He swears that you need to be a good storyteller

to be a good trial lawyer. :-)

Clinton McKinzie

Being a good storyteller is a required skill

for a trial lawyer. Being an actual lawyer

tends to be less important in the criminal field.

What matters, just like in writing novels, is connecting with your audience.

Mary Rosenblum

That's what Jim used to tell me. Interesting.

Maybe I should try hard to end up on a jury next week! :-)

paja

Who or What determines if a 1st novel is paper or hard back?

Clinton McKinzie

My agent tried to demand it,

but the publisher we ended up going with (Bantam Dell) insisted that it was up to them.

In the end we got the hardcover. But the primary reason for it going out as a hardcover

was more to get reviews than make money. Reviewers tend to be annoyingly

reluctant to review paperbacks. I prefer paperbacks, though. They seem like perfect technology.

Cheap and disposable.

Mary Rosenblum

Personally, I'll try unknown writers for 6.99 when I won't try an unknown for 25.99!

paulplqn

How much time is given to deliver a finished product to

the publisher?

Clinton McKinzie

Exactly (re: price)

As for delivering, you have to have a finished manuscript generally

before you submit it to the publisher. Then the editing process begins,

which for me averages a couple of months.

Then there's usually a hell of a long wait, like a year (in my case)

for the book to be released.

As for a second book --

and most contracts are for two book deals --

they give you a loose deadline for the next one. They often want

an outline at one point and a finished manuscript at a later date.

Mary Rosenblum

You should be able to sell your proposal without the actual ms in hand.

First time novelists can't do that.

Clinton McKinzie

Yes. But a first mss

will likely fetch an agent and then a publisher

only when it's complete. I don't know that you could, as a first time author,

sell just a proposal.

senicynt

Is payment always given in an advance or is it dependant on the individual contract?

Clinton McKinzie

It depends.

For my first contract (for 2 books, one finished, one

not even contemplated) I was paid the entire amount upon signing.

For my 2nd contract (another 2-booker), I was paid a little for signing it,

a little more for an outline, a little more for a finished mss, etc.

Mary Rosenblum

Everything up front is rare, I believe.

Clinton McKinzie

Then I was lucky.

It kept me from going back to prosecuting child sex assaults.

Mary Rosenblum

Frequently, you get paid half on the signing and the other half when the ms is edited and accepted.

Glad you got it up front!

gerald

Do you build a detailed outline of a book before you begin? If so, how closely do you follow it as you progress with the work?

Clinton McKinzie

I tried to outline it, but gave up.

Once I started writing, it just kept going off in different directions.

If I could stay focused, I think an outline would be very beneficial,

but I always had a pretty good idea where I wanted the story to end up.

paja

What are your thoughts about e-books?

Clinton McKinzie

Hmm. I really don't know. I know that my first book is

available electronically, but I haven't heard anything about sales.

It seems, though, like I read a lot about e-book companies going out of business.

Mary Rosenblum

They do come and go

and the risk is that if you post a very good story in an ezine

you will compromise your ability to sell that story to a larger magazine.

Clinton McKinzie

That makes good sense. But you might

also get it noticed, I guess

Maybe a story could turn into a book from there.

Mary Rosenblum

That's a good point, Clinton! Because publishing a story

doesn't affect it's use in a subsequent novel. I've done that many times.

paulplqn

Clinton, what is your "typical" day like when writing?

Clinton McKinzie

It kind of sucks. Lately I've been working 12 to 14 hour days,

6 or 7 days a week, to meet a deadline.

Now that it's met, I'm going to relax and have a little more fun.

What's really great is when you get into it and lose all track of time.

those days are the best, but lately they been kind of rare. I try to force them, though,

by working away from home in a quiet office that's like a monk's cell--no distractions.

Mary Rosenblum

I love that 'lost in the story' feeling. I think that's why I write.

No distractions, huh? But then, you only have ONE Rott. :-)

Clinton McKinzie

And he stays home. And he's not too happy about it.

Mary Rosenblum

I have often thought that I'd love to have an office

especially when I had two young kids at home,

but hey, I can now write in an airline waiting room and have done so many times.

Clinton McKinzie

That's a skill I really need to learn.

I try to do my thinking about characters and scenes while I going for a run

or doing a long approach to a climb.

Mary Rosenblum

Just don't get distracted halfway up the cliff face!

Clinton McKinzie

Climbing is "lost time," just like when

you get into what you're writing. Everything else just fades away.

Mary Rosenblum

Your website is gorgeous. Do you feel it has helped you?

Clinton McKinzie

I don't know, really. I don't know anything about hits or any of that. But it's fun to get email through it.

As you can probably tell by my typing

I'm not all that technologically advanced.

Mary Rosenblum

Did you hire someone to do it for you? And my dear, your typing is WAY better than some! LOL

Clinton McKinzie

Thank you for that. I keep reading what I've written and thinking, aagghh!

My sister-in-law is a web designer. She does it for fun.

I just have to check it out every now and then and make sure my Mom hasn't added strange and

embarassing things to my biography or something like that.

Mary Rosenblum

ooooh, that's not fair!!! :-)

chatty lady

Looked at your web-site and your book jackets are so elegant.

Mary Rosenblum

They are!

Clinton McKinzie

Thank you, Chatty Lady! I'll pass that along to the people who

are responsible!

Bantam Dell

laughed at all my suggestions.

Mary Rosenblum

Well, we have NO say on covers, but you did very well!

senicynt

What are your story inspirations? People you've worked with, know, or the ones you read about in the paper?

Clinton McKinzie

All three. Probably stories I've heard first hand, or things that have happened to me or a friend

are the most important inspirations, but the imagination just takes off from there. Things I read

in the paper change my plots. Other books I read and like change my characters and teach me how to

portray them better. Just writing as much as you can is a great process for learning about people as well

as improving your writing.

My first book I just kind of pieced together from things that had happened in cases I tried,

and things that happened in my "dirtbag climbing" days in Wyoming.

Mary Rosenblum

One audience member asked if book deals were a set fee or if they were a percentage of sales.

Clinton McKinzie

Well, the way it's worked for me is that they pay you an advance,

and then, like years later, the royalties accrued after earning out the advance.

The royalties are anywhere from 8-15% from each book, depending on how many copies sell.

There's also a bonus sometimes thrown in if you manage to "earn out" and start getting those royalties.

mbvoelker

Do you do readings for book promotion? If so, how do you decide what to read?

Clinton McKinzie

I've tried to pick dramatic, beautifully written scenes, but can never find any

so I just end up talking a little, telling stories, and trying to give an idea of what the book's about

I've only done one book tour, though, so I'm not really too sure yet what you're supposed to do.

Hopefully I'll have it figured out before I do a more extensive tour for the next book in July.

Mary Rosenblum

Can't find any, great scenes, huh? Ha. Let your wife pick 'em. :-)

Clinton McKinzie

They probably wouldn't be the sex scenes, then.

Mary Rosenblum

Can you read them in public without blushing? she asks brightly.

Clinton McKinzie

I doubt it. I'm not even going to try. My mom would probably freak out.

Mary Rosenblum

Oh yes, parents....

paulplqn

You get 8 - 15% royalty on hardcover and paperback? And, is there a time limit on how long you get royalties? And who paid the transportation and lodging for the tour? You or the publisher?

Clinton McKinzie

Most publishing houses, I'm told, don't send new authors out on tour and pay for it.

I ended up doing most of it on my own the first time. As for this second time, it looks like they'll pay for the things

they want me to do, and I'll pay my own way to a few appearances I want to do.

paulplqn

Clinton, are there any authors that have inspired you, or whom you really enjoy reading?

Clinton McKinzie

My favorite crime writer is Michael Connelly.

But I love reading. And I usually love however I'm reading. But I would

have to say that Connelly is kind of my role model.

He was also kind

enough to give me a blurb!

Mary Rosenblum

That's great. And I have found that most writers are willing to blurb your book.

I've blurbed quite a few and I've received some very generous words from some big names. :-)

paulplqn

Sounds like a first tour could be a candidate for a tax write off under employment expenses.

Clinton McKinzie

Yes. It's amazing that writers will do this

for the competition. I hope to get to repay the favor often.

Absolutely.

I throw in a little climbing, too. Shh.

Mary Rosenblum

I don't really think that we're in competition with each other, you know? Even in the same genre. People read a LOT of books if they read at all.

Clinton McKinzie

Paulplqn must be a lawyer.

Mary Rosenblum

I think Paul is with the IRS. heheh.

Clinton McKinzie

Yes, but I can't help getting a little jealous

when I read someone else's book that is just soooo good.

Most recently Dennis Lehane's Mystic River. I wanted to kick his ass, it was so good.

Mary Rosenblum

Another one to add to my list. But doesn't it drive you back to the computer, DETERMINED to do as well?

Clinton McKinzie

I was just kidding, paulplq!

paulplqn

Nope, I’m a middle school special education teacher.

Clinton McKinzie

Ah, even more dangerous. What a great place, though, to learn about people and their stories.

If I could pick another career, it would be to teach. Unfortunately, I'm terrible at explaining things.

paulplqn

Determined to write, YES! Inspired by good stories.

Clinton McKinzie

And, I imagine, that there're some pretty sad ones too, but stories that need to be told.

Mary Rosenblum

Clinton, you were a beginner not too too long ago

and you're on the other side of that first sale...well on the other side of it.

What is one thing that you wish you'd known when you started out...that you know now?

Clinton McKinzie

That the pleasure is really to be found in the writing, not in seeing the book on a shelf in some store.

I spent too much time waiting and waiting for that first book to be published.

When it was, it was kind of anti-climatic. It didn't make me rich or famous or anything.

And even doing TV interviews wasn't as much fun a sitting all alone in my little office,

imagining my characters doing the things they do.

Mary Rosenblum

Clinton, I think that's incredibly profound, and I hope everyone here takes this advice home with them tonight

because it IS the pleasure in the writing that matters. And I have known more than a couple of writers

who got so wrapped up in the ups and downs of numbers and publishing and sales that they quit.

Clinton McKinzie

That would take all the fun out of it.

Mary Rosenblum

It sure can!

chatty lady

That’s so hard to imagine, I would think seeing the final product would be exciting especially the way your books look ON THE SHELVES, lol

Clinton McKinzie

It is kind of cool for a minute or two, but it's also sort of surreal.

I look at it and think of all the changes I should have made.

Mary Rosenblum

Now that can drive you nuts, too, Clinton! Me, I forget the story the minute I send back

the copyedited final draft!

Clinton McKinzie

You're lucky.

Mary Rosenblum

I WORK at it. :-) There's only so much room inside here!

Clinton McKinzie

Especially with 3 rotties circling around you all the time.

Mary Rosenblum

Then there's that! :-)

senicynt

Actually, I just like to write. If it gets published, it pays for the wordprocessor & paper!

Clinton McKinzie

That's a terrific attitude. And it's that kind of passion that probably will get you published, senicynt.

Mary Rosenblum

I agree!

paulplqn

My fear is to end up in the "cut out" bin at the local K-Mart.

Clinton McKinzie

Me too. I'm not going to look.

I never even glance at those bargain-price overstock shelves in the stores.

Mary Rosenblum

They're still sales, Paul! :-)

Clinton, you have been a great guest! And have given us

a lot of very important inside information on what comes after that sale.

Tell us about your books, especially the one coming out soon!

Clinton McKinzie

POINT OF LAW, my #2, comes out next week. It's going to be a paperback,

and the following month my #3, TRIAL BY ICE AND FIRE (Believe me, I didn't make up these titles)

will be released.

It's a strange, innovative strategy to try and pump out a lot of books in 3 months.

The paperback of #1, original paperback of #2, and hardcover of #3. We'll see if it works.

The covers are as weird as the plan.

Mary Rosenblum

If those are the covers on your website, they are HOT covers. I have enough editor friends

who critique bookcovers in every bookstore we enter to have some idea of what attracts readers!

Clinton McKinzie

I try not to get involved. In fact, Bantam Dell tells me not to get involved.

Whenever I say something about marketing or publicity, they just kind of roll their eyes

and say, You let us worry about that. You worry about the writing. And they're right.

Mary Rosenblum

Editors KNOW that writers know nothing about marketing. :-)

arfelin

Clinton, does your down-to-earth, humorous personality shine through in your writing?

Clinton McKinzie

What humor, arfelin? What the hell are you talking about?

Just kidding.

Mary Rosenblum

I'm laughing. I bet it does. Are you blushing yet, Clinton?

Clinton McKinzie

I hope there's some humor in the books. I tried hard to be funny.

chatty lady

The part that really makes me crazy is that those who know you're a writer keep pestering WELL, have you sold anything yet? Its become something that makes writing stressful at times. I've finally just begun saying when asked, "what do you do" I say I'm a nude dancer.....at 62 that sort of ends the conversation......Honestly, did that ever happen to you?

Clinton McKinzie

No, I've never danced nude.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. That's a great response! Often, especially before the first book

came out, I just say I'm a lawyer. That shuts them up, too.

As a prosecutor,

when people asked me what I did

I always said "Pest Control."

Mary Rosenblum

Chatty I'm going to recommend your answer to quite a number of my students

and I have a friend, Mike, who is now well published, whose answer used to be that he played piano in a whorehouse.

That usually ended the conversation, too.

Clinton McKinzie

Writing really is like nude dancing, so it really is a great answer.

Mary Rosenblum

It is indeed. Or at least like standing on a table in your underwear...if you don't dance. :-)

paulplqn

If writing is like nude dancing, don't use a leather chair. You'll stick!

Clinton McKinzie

Good advice. I assume that's something learned from experience? But even when you're writing fiction, you're exposing so much,

what you daydream about, what's going on in your head, etc.

Mary Rosenblum

That's absolutely true. You really end up exposing way more than you think you'll do.

Clinton, thanks for coming tonight. You were great, and I'd love to have you visit again, after your gook is out…

uh..book is out...

and you've done your tour.

Clinton McKinzie

Gook? That's not very PC.

Mary Rosenblum

I know...my dark side rearing its head...

Clinton McKinzie

Those Vietnam flashbacks.

Mary Rosenblum

Can people find a schedule of your signings on your website?

I suspect you've made quite a few new fans tonight.

Clinton McKinzie

Yep. They can email me, too.

Mary Rosenblum

I'm lining up. :-)

Clinton McKinzie

Thanks Mary, everyone.

It was a pleasure. I had a great time.

Adios.

Mary Rosenblum

Thanks for coming all, and good night!