Jeff Colburn: Submitting Photos with Your Prose 4/15/04

Mary Rosenblum

This is our Professional Connection live interview with Jeff Colburn, photographer, writer, and website designer, talking about submitting photos with your work.

Jeff, welcome! I’m looking forward to learning a lot here, tonight!

Jeff Colburn

Thanks Mary. Hello everyone.

Mary Rosenblum

Want to start by telling us a bit about how you got started?

Which came first? Writing or photography?

Jeff Colburn

Photography first.

Mary Rosenblum

Was that something you got into very early?

Jeff Colburn

I started taking pictures with the family’s cheap camera, and by college was into Nikons.

I started photography when I was about 10, and writing at about 11 or 12.

Mary Rosenblum

Wow, nice early start!

Were they connected at all at the beginning? Did your pictures evoke stories?

Jeff Colburn

Not really. There were a lot of family and travel stuff, but mainly to record what was happening. The two didn't really merge until high school.

Mary Rosenblum

Tell us about that merger? I'm curious about the way we perceive things via images versus the way we create with words.

Jeff Colburn

Well, I started writing magazine articles and realized there would be a bigger market and more pay if I included photographs. So I wrote a story about a local park, included some pictures and it sold to the first magazine I sent it to. I think it was called Western Photographer.

Mary Rosenblum

Wow. I'm impressed. They must have been good to sell to a photography magazine! Great beginning!

Jeff Colburn

Some skill, some luck, combines.

bengalrose

What markets are there for publishing photographs? What are the dos and don'ts of photo submission?

Jeff Colburn

If you mean just photographs, with no writing, I would seriously look into stock photo companies.

As for do's and don'ts, never send originals, only copies.

Mary Rosenblum

That's a serious 'do' for ANY submission!

Jeff Colburn

If you mean photos and articles, I'd try travel, city, in-flight and similar publications that use lots of pictures.

Mary Rosenblum

Nature magazines, too?

Jeff Colburn

Yes, a great place to send photos.

Mary Rosenblum

Let's see, garden magazines are big on pictures, too.

Jeff Colburn

What I like to do is go to the library and see what magazine have pictures, especially pictures that are like the ones I take.

Mary Rosenblum

Good point, Jeff! I keep urging new nonfiction writers to use magazine racks as reference!

coway

Do you mind my asking how old you were when you sold this first one?

Jeff Colburn

Hey, it a fast and easy place to see lots of magazines.

I was in high school, maybe 16.

And I'm much older now.

Mary Rosenblum

I'm impressed, Jeff. I suspect a lot of people are. :-) And aren't we all.

Jeff Colburn

You just can't stop that old clock from ticking

colleen

How much more pay do pictures bring you (in general)?

Jeff Colburn

Many times a magazine will pay about half of what they pay you for the copy. Others just pay a flat fee per picture used.

roe

Jeff do editors have a preference for size?  My guidelines don't specify size.

Jeff Colburn

With saying in the guidelines is a guessing game. Almost every place I have sent to wants slides.

If you're going to send prints, send 8x10's.

bengalrose

Isn't a photograph by its nature a copy? I assume you mean that we should not submit negatives?

Jeff Colburn

Right, never send original negatives or slides.

gskearney

Do you use digital or film, and could you comment on both?

Jeff Colburn

Right now I use film, but I want to switch to digital sooooo bad.

The problem is that many places want slides, and making slides from digital can be a little expensive.

If you want to mail prints or slides do this. After they ask to see your prints/slides then do this. Every slide and print should have your name, address and copyright on it. You can do this by hand, with a stamp or a small address label. I don't like labels as they can come off or be taken off. Get your prints and stack them together. Flip over the top print so only the back of the print is showing. For slides, put them in clear plastic slide pages. Now place the prints/slides in between two sheets of corrugated cardboard. One of the sheets of cardboard should have the ribs going vertically, the other should have the ribs going horizontally. Hook a rubber band on the top right corner of the cardboard and stretch it to hook on the bottom left corner. Repeat this for the top left to bottom right corner. Now put it into a manila envelope and mail it off. Each slide should have your file number on it (you do have a filing system, don't you?). For prints/slides just have a sheet of paper with all of the print's/slide's numbers on them, and a caption after each number. For prints you can also put the caption on a piece of paper, and attach it to the back of the print with a small piece of tape. It should hang below the print so you can see the print and caption at the same time. If you do this just fold the paper back where the tape is when you mail it.

More and more places are going digital. There are many factors that go into the decision about going digital, not the least being whether you are a professional or amateur photographer. You need to ask yourself how you will use your photographs. Will they be for your website, magazine articles, stock agencies, advertising or something else? You then have to do some research and see what each of these markets asks for. Stock agencies love digital, as do many ad agencies, but most magazines want slides.

Jeff Colburn

You can always cheat and shoot film, then just scan the image and sent that to the editor.

Mary Rosenblum

Wow, those are VERY complete instructions, Jeff. Thanks!

Mary Rosenblum

If you choose to scan a regular photo, do you lose quality?

Jeff Colburn

Yes. Digital is not as good as film yet. But if the image is going onto a website then you only need about 72DPI. If you need good quality scans, have a professional lab do it. Drum scanners are great for this.

Mary Rosenblum

Good to know. Thanks.

writeaway

Do you use digital camera?

Jeff Colburn

Not yet. Since a top of the line digital costs about  $30,000 - $40,000, and a professional entry level one is about  $2,000. I'm holding off.

Besides, I'd like the image quality to get a little better in digital cameras. If you get a nice 6 megapixel camera you can use this for anything on a website, and a few other things too.

Mary Rosenblum

That answers my question about the quality of the discount store $199 special.

roe

What type of pictures do you like to take?

Jeff Colburn

I really like to take people pictures, followed closely by nature.

coway

How much does a professional entry level film camera cost?

Jeff Colburn

You can get a nice on for between $250 and $500 Check out Nikon, Canon and Pentax.

bengalrose

So, if I find this great little nook somewhere and snap a picture. I could write up an article and send it along with the photo to a nature mag, or garden mag, or whatever is appropriate? Does this require a query letter first?

Jeff Colburn

First, don't include the photos with the query. Wait until the editor asks for them.

Mary Rosenblum

But you should mention that you have photos available, right?

Jeff Colburn

If the guidelines say to query first, then do this. I query before even writing an article.

Mary Rosenblum

Yes!!!! Yes!!!

Jeff Colburn

Yes, just say that photos are available. You could also say how many photos you have and briefly describe what the pictures cover. It's too frustrating for me to spend time writing an article, then try to sell it. Instead I do an outline, write the query and send it off. It saves a lot of time.  It took me a while to get over the fear of not having the article ready to mail out. Then I did dun get smarter.

Mary Rosenblum

Question... Is it better to send NO photos than mediocre ones?

Jeff Colburn

Yes. Bad photos could kill the entire project.

Mary Rosenblum

So what does an editor look for when he or she is considering a photo?

Jeff Colburn

Good composition, color saturation, exposure and story telling. There's an article on my site creativeCauldron.com that talks about composition and the Rule Of Thirds.

Mary Rosenblum

Creative Cauldron

This is the link to Jeff's Website.

It is a very good site.

Jeff Colburn

Thanks Mary.

gskearney

The site http://www.iprintfromhome.com/  says they will convert digital to slides for first copy and for dupes. That doesn't sound too bad to me.

Jeff Colburn

That sounds about right. I've checked several local labs and websites, and the price is usually between and, with to being average.

Mary Rosenblum

Do you see a wide range in quality coming from various labs? Is it worth trying several?

Jeff Colburn

Of course, if you’re doing a lot of converting you can just buy a scanner with a slide and negative attachment, or just buy a slide/negative scanner.

Yes, try two or three and compare price and quality. Use the lesser quality for website images and higher quality for print publications.

gskearney

I was going to mention it at the end, but let me say here that I have been to Creative Cauldron and stolen some useful ideas. I have the dictionary also, and it's quite useful for research.

Mary Rosenblum

You have a fan, Jeff. :-)

Jeff Colburn

Thanks gskearney. One can never have too many fans.

shoutjoy

Would you suggest a course in photography? I don't think I would know a good photo from a bad one.

Jeff Colburn

I always believe in doing the simple things first. Read some books, find articles on the Internet, then if you feel like you need more training, take a class.

Mary Rosenblum

Sailor asks:  The only places within an hour drive that develop file are Walmart and Target, and they're just not cutting it. Can you recommend a good mail in outfit for developing slides and getting digital copies on a CD?

Jeff Colburn

Not really, Sailor . I've always lived by labs that could do my work. Send me an email with this question and I'll check around to see if I can find anything and let you know. Send it to JeffColburn@CreativeCauldron.com

Let me give you some inside professional secrets about film selection. That really depends on the kind of shooting you do, and how the final image will be used. The lower the ASA number the finer the grain in the film, so ASA 64 has a finer grain than ASA 125. The finer the grain the sharper the image will be and the more you can enlarge it. There are many good films out there, including Kodak, Ilford and Fuji. There are a few secrets pertaining to box color and film use. Fuji comes in a green box, and it captures greens will. Kodachrome is in a red box and captures red well, Ektachrome is in a blue box and captures blues well. So Fuji works great for plants and forests, Kodachrome is good for people and Ektachrome works well with pictures of skies and blue water. I suggest using the finest grain the lighting will allow.

bengalrose

I got a Nikon SLR not too long ago. Nice camera. I've never shot slides with it though. Can you tell us a little about shooting slides?

Jeff Colburn

Slides are a little tricky. You have less latitude with the exposure. You have to be pretty much bang on. If I'm shooting something important I'll take three shots. One in the middle, on overexposed by 1/3 stop and one underexposed by 1/3 stop. I also set my meter to always be 1/3 stop underexposed when shooting slides as it gives better color saturation.

However, you can scan a slide, then use the great god Photoshop to fix a lot of problems, except for overexposure.

Mary Rosenblum

Can you talk about Photoshop for us? I gather that is THE software tool.

Jeff Colburn

Photoshop is the standard for photo manipulation. I'm still pretty new to it, but the things it can do are amazing. If you want to get it for a dirt cheap price, be a student.

I took a class at a local college, which qualified me for the student rate. I bought Photoshop. Illustrator, GoLive and Acrobat. This usually costs $1,000, but I paid a lot less.

Mary Rosenblum

You're lucky. It is NOT dirt cheap otherwise, but I watched my graphic artist friend MAKE me promotional material in about fifteen minutes!

It is worth the bucks if you do this sort of thing professionally.

Jeff Colburn

Just go to Adobe.com or Gradware.com to make sure you qualify for the student discount. There are other discounts for teachers, etc. My only compliant is that 3 months after I bought this stuff Adobe released upgraded versions. Oh well, back for another class.

Mary Rosenblum

Sailor asks: Magazines I am targeting say if you have photos instead of slides, they require the negatives with the photos. Do I cut the negatives so I can keep the others in the strip?

Jeff Colburn

NO. As I said before, never send originals. Go to a lab and have duplicate slides made. Cutting a strip of negatives makes them harder to use in the printer.

gskearney

Let me put on my software guru hat here and mention that Jasc Paintshop Pro and Adobe Elements are both relatively inexpensive starter programs with most of the functionality that even a very advanced amateur would ever need.

Jeff Colburn

Yes, I just won a copy of Photoshop Elements and it's very nice. I even use it sometimes because some of the features are easier to use than in the full blown version of Photoshop. There are also some free photo manipulation programs out there for basic stuff. You can find them on a website called CallForHelp.com

dvjlabonte

Is there anything out there that makes it 'taboo' to publish photographs with fantasy pieces (aside from the magazines that I have researched that do not wish for them? Of course they would have to be in context and all.

Jeff Colburn

Not really, it's just that most publishers of fantasy pieces don't use photographs. However, they love to use artwork, and if your photographs are like the artwork then let the publisher know.

Mary Rosenblum

Or...and I will speak as a SF/fantasy writer and friend of many editors in the field...

exhibit your photos at SF convention art shows. That is where editors shop for cover art.

Jeff Colburn

That's a great idea!

Mary Rosenblum

I have spent quite a few hours with editors as they look for cover art. It's a GREAT place to get exposure in the SF/fantasy field.

shoutjoy

Do you ever send in a digitized photo CD with the manuscript or does it have to be actual photos?

Jeff Colburn

Any excuse to go to a Con is a good excuse.

Mary Rosenblum

That's certainly true, Jeff! :-)

Jeff Colburn

First, shout, don't send any photos until the editors asks for them. Then it depends what they want, prints, slides, digital and if they want them mailed or emailed.

Mary Rosenblum

The editor will usually tell you specifically, yes?

Jeff Colburn

Yes, and what the editor says goes. As I told someone the other day editor=god. If you don't believe it, ask any editor.

Mary Rosenblum

Yep. They'll tell you right off.... :-)

babbles

How do you feel about photo contests? Have you ever entered one? Won?

Jeff Colburn

Let me tell you why you don't send in original work. Without going into too much detail I've had prints returned that were torn, had footprints on them and rings from coffee mugs smack dab in the middle. As for slides, some have been lost, they've been returned with staples in them, been taken out of the cardboard mount and put into plastic ones, and once a slide was taken out of the cardboard mount, cut in half and just half of the slide put into a plastic mount.

I usually don't enter any contest that I have to pay for.

There's nothing wrong with paying, it's just a personal thing for me.

I did enter some photo contests at a company I worked for and won 2nd place once and honorable mention another time.

Mary Rosenblum

Selling to an editor is always better than winning a contest, anyway!

Jeff Colburn

Yes, it is.

roe

Is the market for nature photography hard to break into?

Jeff Colburn

I don't think so. There are a lot of nature publications and websites out there. And don't forget stock photo markets.

I did just hear that Arizona Highways is planning on staying with film for now.  They say they don't want to burden their photographers with the expense of going digital. I think it's their own bottom line that their watching.

Mary Rosenblum

Could you talk about the stock market a bit? I don't think a lot of new people know about it.

Jeff Colburn

Stock photo companies have changed a lot in the past few years.

Now, they usually require you to sign an exclusive contract with them.

If you do this be sure that's the company you want to deal with.

The secret is to supply them with a lot of pictures, usually several thousand a year

or be very specialized. There are photographers that shoot only Bald Eagles, or lightening.

Mary Rosenblum

So they pay you a small fee for every picture they keep? And what do they do with them?

Jeff Colburn

Read the contract closely and be sure it meets your needs and that they sell a lot of the kind of pictures you take.

No. When they sell one of your images you get a percentage. Somewhere around 50%.

Mary Rosenblum

Royalty and no advance, then?

Jeff Colburn

Correct.

Mary Rosenblum

Who buys from them?

Jeff Colburn

Lots of places. Magazines, ad agencies, websites. Almost any business you can think of.  The latest trend for stock agencies is to sell royalty free images. I think the stock agency buys all rights, so the one fee you get is it.

babbles

Are you talking about greeting card, post card companies etc.?

Jeff Colburn

Any company that uses photographs at some time or another will probably use a stock agency.

It is the photo version of work for hire.

Mary Rosenblum

What kind of fees do stock companies pay?

Or what do you get when you get a percentage?

Jeff Colburn

It's all over the map.

It depends on the size of the final image, where it will be used (cover, inside, card, mailer), how many times it will be used, by who (local magazine or Time) and so on,

I have a ten page document that gives guidelines of prices to sell images for stock use.

writeaway

Where do you find these stock photo markets?

Jeff Colburn

The fastest way is to put "stock photography" into google. There are hundreds of them out there. And I know several photographers that do their own stock work. But then they have to do all the marketing, billing, and deal with clients.

Mary Rosenblum

Are they selective? If you send in forty images, will they buy seven?

Jeff Colburn

 They are very selective.  They will tell you how to send them in. Anywhere from 50 to 250 slides,

then they decide if you are worthy. If they like your work they will send you a contract.

If they kind of like your work they will tell you to submit when you get a little better.

If they don't like you they just say no.

Mary Rosenblum

Sounds a lot like submitting fiction, lol.

Jeff Colburn

It is, only now your writing AND photographs can get rejected.  Most of the good stock agencies have their submission guidelines on their site, as well as a copy of the contract they will have you sign.

coway

So these companies only by photographs, then try and sell them? Sounds like you could lose money instead of making money.

Jeff Colburn

It's a gamble. That's why it's important to send in tons of images or be very specialized. So you have a better chance at selling.

However, there are photographers that make six figures a year with stock sales.

writerdave

Jeff, do you lose all rights when you submit?

Mary Rosenblum

What rights DO you sell when you sell  a photo?

Jeff Colburn

Hey there Writerdave.

You only lose the rights if you sign them away.

But you are restricted in other sales of an image at a stock agency if you signed an exclusive contract.

So you still have the rights, you are just limited where you can sell them.

Mary Rosenblum

Are the rights similar to prose rights? First North American Serial, Electronic, that sort of thing?

Jeff Colburn

Not usually. Since good images are sold over and over again this doesn't apply.

Mary Rosenblum

How are they described in a contract?

You can tell I don't sell photos.

Jeff Colburn

What the publication (or whoever) buys is the right to use an image in a certain way, a certain number of times and a certain size.

It will be something like this:

You have the right to use image #11223 in Punk magazine, US circulation, July issue, inside cover, half page, one time.

Mary Rosenblum

Very specific in other words.

Jeff Colburn

Yes, usage is the key to determining the price, so they get VERY specific. And they check to make sure you stick to the limitations. If you don't then they send you a bill.

babbles

Can you resell a photo after it has been published by someone else or can you sell it before it is published?

Jeff Colburn

Yes to both questions. It's like selling an article, it's best to tell the publisher that the photo was sold before, or tell someone that is buying the photo that it appeared in X magazine already.

gskearney

And you get paid EACH time the stock company sells the picture?

Jeff Colburn

Yes, unless you have sold the rights like for the royalty free thing.

It's the repeat sales that make all the money for you with stock agencies.

writerdave

Jeff, what info (such as a cutline) do you send with pictures?

Mary Rosenblum

And you'd better define cutline, Jeff! Thanks.

Jeff Colburn

And the expert falls. I've never heard of cutline, is it the same as a caption?

writerdave

sorry, that’s the reporter in me (yes, its a caption)

Jeff Colburn

And the expert is back on his feet...

writerdave

I mean, do you send info on time/date/place picture taken?

Jeff Colburn

Each image must have your name and image number (the image number is your personal tracking number).

Then for slides include a sheet with each image number on it. After the image number you describe the photo. Who, What, Where, etc.

With prints you can do the same thing, but it's more common to cut a strip of paper, put the caption info on it and tape it to the back of the print.

The caption on the print should be visible below the print. When you go to mail the image just fold the caption onto the back of the print where the tape is.

The tape acts like a hinge.

Mary Rosenblum

Writerdave, early in the interview Jeff gave some very complete submission instructions. They'll be in the transcript which will be posted on the site.

Jeff Colburn

Some places also want to know film type, camera and lens use and the exposure used for the image.

babbles

Tracking #?

Jeff Colburn

Each of your images (prints, slides and negatives) needs a tracking number.

You need to create a filing system so you can track every image you have.

For example, a slide may have S27-34.

This tells me it's a slide (S), the 27th roll of slide film I shot that year, and image 34 on that roll.

Then you keep a file somewhere on your computer with a separate listing for each tracking number and a description of that image.

This lets you track the image, and you can include usage info as well (who has purchased the image).

For negatives I use N and for prints P.

This is just my system. You need to find a system that works for you. Just be sure you can track every image you have.

This system will also let you do a word search to find images that will work for a particular article.

Mary Rosenblum

That's an excellent system and a very complete description. Thanks.

babbles

I travel a lot, and was wondering about all those travel brochures. Any suggestions on how to submit or should I check the brochure for phone # and call?

Jeff Colburn

I have thousands of slides in my files and I'd hate to have to look through them all whenever I wanted to find an image.

You would need to find out who produced the brochure, then contact the corporate office.

You could also try to find what ad agency produced the brochure and contact them directly. You could probably sell a ton of images to them since they do so much with images.

Mary Rosenblum

I would not do it by phone, however.

Jeff Colburn

No, don't call. Try sending a hot promo letter, telling just how fantastic your photos are and how reasonable your prices are.

dvjlabonte

Are digitally edited photos ok for publication? I am not talking the small tweaks, but say merging more than one image together etc.?

Jeff Colburn

I don't see how that would be a problem, as long a

all the images are yours, and you have the legal right to use them (you haven't sold any rights to them)

and the images don't lie. So don't put Howard Stern on Mt. Rushmore and say that it's a picture of Mt. Rushmore.

Mary Rosenblum

Laughing.

Sailor writes: I want to use the same wildlife photo for 2 different slants on an article. Is this OK? It was a unique situation that I happen to capture so I don't have the option of just taking another photo.

Jeff Colburn

It should be fine

but like I said before, just let the second person who want the use the image know that it's been used before.

writerdave

Jeff do you still use a 35mm??

Jeff Colburn

Yes. Some day I want to try 4x5, but I just love 35mm for it's flexibility, easy of use and the fact that so many publications want 35mm slides.

Let me put something in here...

roe

What size lens do you shoot your nature photo with? Since I see you don't have large format camera you must have large lens.

Mary Rosenblum

oops...sorry.

Jeff Colburn

Marketing in very important to sell writing and photography, so let me tell you about the master, Al Belson..

Jeff Colburn

I have never known anyone who could market like Al. He traveled all around the world, and it never cost him one red cent. Here's a typical example when he was planning a trip to Italy. He would plan an itinerary of what cities he would visit and what would be there. Then he went to banks that needed pictures to decorate their lobby, travel agents, Italian car makers, local magazines and newspapers and anyone else that would be interested in pictures of Italy. He would make an appointment with the owner and show them his portfolio. He would convince them they needed large framed prints or prints for articles. He would get an advance of 30%-50%, then go on his trip. The advances paid for the trip and the balance owed him went into his bank account. Another great example of his marketing skills was when he was going to buy an imported car. He paid his deposit and was told the car would be delivered in 2-3 months. He looked around and noticed there were no picture of the cars in the office. He convinced the owner that there should be large framed prints of the different models in the office. Then he sold him on the idea that since it would take so long her buyers to get their cars the dealer should give each buyer a large framed print of the model of car they bought. The new owner could hang it in their house and show all their friends the great car they just bought. This would increase sales, as friends of buyers would come in to buy cars. The owner agreed and instead of cash for this Al took some cash and a discount on his car. Al's secret was to ALWAYS look for a way to either find a market for his photography, or create one.

Jeff Colburn

I'm a big fan of zoom lenses

unless you pay a few hundred dollars more for a fast lens.  They're a little slow, but a slightly faster film makes up for that.

I have a 43-86mm that I use for a lot of my stuff, especially people and close objects.

I also have a 80-200mm that I use for subjects farther away.

When I went to the Olympics in Los Angeles 1984 I was a member of the Nikon Professional Group.

I was able to take any of their lenses to use free for the day. I grabbed a 300mm mirror lens. Boy was that a great lens.

Mary Rosenblum

Jeff,  that bit about Belson is great. Marketing is a big part of making a living in any of the art fields, writing, photo, fine art. And too often novices totally overlook it. There is nothing wrong with marketing your work competently, whether it is fiction, pictures, or sculpture.

I'll get off my soapbox now. :-)

Jeff Colburn

You have a soapbox too?

Mary Rosenblum

Sure. Right here conveniently under my desk. :-)

We're almost out of time and I'd like to give you the stage here.

Jeff Colburn

Let me say a little about finding markets too.

I spend a lot of time on the internet, and whenever I find guidelines for a publication that sounds interesting I copy the guidelines into a Word file. I also put the date I found the guidelines next to them. So far I have 517 pages of guidelines.

You can also check site like mine (www.CreativeCauldron.com) and see the Markets For Writers on my links page.

Some other sites to check out are: www.EWGPresents.com, www.writingfordollars.com/Guidelines.cfm, www.newsdirectory.com, www.spicygreeniguana.com and www.marketlist.com. There are more places listed on my site.

Mary Rosenblum

Do you sell your SF dictionary on your site, Jeff?

Jeff Colburn

Yes, I do.

Mary Rosenblum

If you are writing SF or fantasy it's worth it. :-)

One last question here:

arrowqueen

What would you say was your all-time favorite photo?

Jeff Colburn

There are a couple that come to mind.

I remember taking a great photo in Hawaii.

I was on the edge of a very high cliff and it was very windy.

The wind off the ocean was so strong that I had to lean way into it so I wouldn't get blown over.

The second I pressed the shutter the wind stopped.

I don’t mean it slowed down. It stopped. And I started to go over the edge of the cliff.

At the last second the wind kicked up, pushed me back and I now have a great picture of huge boulders as seen through powder blue water, shot from above.

I also have some great pictures of Stonehenge...

and a great picture of a very cute little girl give Minnie Mouse a hug at Disneyland.

Mary Rosenblum

Wow, talk about a photo filled with adrenalin -- that cliff shot!

An angle you can't recapture LOL

Anything more you want to ad here?

Jeff Colburn

Got that straight1

Mary Rosenblum

A little self promotion is good!

Anything new we can look for?

Jeff Colburn

I just want to thank everyone for showing up and asking questions.

Jeff Colburn

And a special thanks to you Mary for having me here.

Mary Rosenblum

You have been a wonderful guest, Jeff.

I hope you'll come back again. This has helped a lot of people.

Jeff Colburn

I'd love to.

Mary Rosenblum

Great!

It's a plan!

We'll let you go, and I hope everybody visits Creative Cauldron. It is an excellent site!

Jeff Colburn

Good Night All!

Mary Rosenblum

Good night all!