Revision: How to Do It, with Katharine Kerr 7/16/03

Mary Rosenblum

Welcome to our Thursday Professional Connection Interview, all!

I hope you've had a good week!

Tonight we're visiting with Katharine Kerr, author of acclaimed Fantasy and Science Fiction books.

In 1979 a friend gave Katharine what became known as "the fatal gift," her first fantasy role-playing game.

She became so intrigued with both gaming and the fantasy field as a whole that she began writing articles for gaming magazines, and for some time was a contributing editor to DRAGON magazine.

This path led inexorably to the writing of fantasy fiction, in particular her well-known series of books set in the kingdom of Deverry.

A further lapse occurred when she began to write science fiction, including the Polar City books, FREEZE FRAMES, and her newest work, SNARE. She has also edited three short story anthologies, so here is your chance to ask questions of an editor!

Well, let's get started here! I'm glad you all could make it, and welcome, Katharine! I'm so glad you could be here!

Katharine Kerr

Thank you, Mary! I'm glad too!

Mary Rosenblum

I have to say that while I'm not an avid Fantasy reader, I really enjoy your work, Katharine, and I loved the stories you put

together in the anthology 'Shimmering Door'.

Katharine Kerr

Thank you. That anthology cost some blood, sweat, and tears

but I was pleased with the result when it finally came out.

Mary Rosenblum

I'm curious about the process of putting together an anthology like that...and for those of you in the audience who

are not sure what exactly this is, it's a collection of short stories, either by multiple authors or a single author.

So what for you, Katharine, was the most challenging part of the process?

Katharine Kerr

Dealing with the publisher, Mary. It generally is. After I'd bought all the stories

the price of paper went up, and they tried to shorten the book against the contract.

Not all were that hard, though. Mercifully.

Mary Rosenblum

Ouch. Were you able to keep it the original length?

Katharine Kerr

Close to. They wanted me to drop 6 authors -- who'd already been paid .

I got one author to write a shorter piece and we dropped 1 other.

This required a temper tantrum on my part, however.

Mary Rosenblum

Instead of six? That's a good. I hope it was a GOOD tantrum!

Katharine Kerr

It worked. This is what counts. :-)

Mary Rosenblum

I think it's hard for beginning writers to realize that the editor has tough times, too, and not

just the writer. It's easy to think of the editor as All Powerful! I know I did at first!

Katharine Kerr

I did at first, too. There's nothing like being in their shoes to show otherwise.

Mary Rosenblum

No kidding!

roe

Just wanted to say hello from Cleveland, and welcome!

Katharine Kerr

Another Clevelander! Great!!!

I was born there, in Cleveland, and spent my childhood there.

Mary Rosenblum

Another small-world moment! :-)

Katharine Kerr

Yep!

gail

I wish to enter a contest which has three categories for entrants: professional; amateur; and youth. Their requirement for the professional category is to be "published at least twice." My question is, would a few articles published in a local newspaper, (some occurring in the same edition) qualify as being published more than twice? The prize variance for each category is quite significant.

Katharine Kerr

Gail, you need to write the contest holders and clarify that point

All contests differ. Be sure that they do not own the copyright on all entries

before you enter, though. Some are scams.

Mary Rosenblum

I'd like to step in here, too, because I've been talking a lot about rights on the site

and caution all contest entrants to really check the contest out first. Some of them

claim all rights to the winning stories. That isn't good. Means you can't publish it elsewhere!

Katharine Kerr

Some even claim the rights to all -entries-!!! Gaming magazines do that.

Some gaming mags, I should say, for modules.

Mary Rosenblum

If you have a question, bring it up here in one of my Forums. Sometimes the language is...obscure!

Katharine Kerr

Obscure on purpose, too.

Mary Rosenblum

Yes! So, Katharine, having spent this week with a bunch of high school kids, working on revision...why is it so hard for writers?

Katharine Kerr

Well, I think it's a question of attitude to revision -- how the writer sees and defines it.

Most people see revision as correcting mistakes or as a sign they

have failed somehow. Who wouldn't hate that?

What revision really is is simply part of the process, of focusing, fine tuning, and inspiration.

Mary Rosenblum

Maybe that's it...the sense that we are supposed to get it right the first time!

Katharine Kerr

Yes, and "getting it right the first time" implies any changes mean you were wrong.

That's not true. It may go back to high school and college writing assignments.

But no human being ever gets anything perfectly perfect on one go --

nothing longer than a sentence, anyway. :-)

Mary Rosenblum

That may be part of the problem...that we perceive it as a 'test'!

Katharine Kerr

Just so. Like in school, where all the questions had to be answered right the first time,

cause there was no second time. This is not true of writing in the real world.

Revision means making something stronger and better, and yes, along the way you will find ‘mistakes’, too, and fix them.

nancyann

Once your story is published by a magazine, do they have all the rights to it?

Katharine Kerr

Nancyann, only if you sell them all the rights. Don't! "First North American serial rights"

is all they should get for an American magazine.

Mary Rosenblum

Nan, all rights means that you are selling your actual words to the magazine. Any other form of rights means that

you are giving them 'license' to use your word for a limited time in a limited way. You still own your words.

chatty lady

Have seen a lot of markets lately that say they only give one or up to 10 contributor copies for first rights or one time rights. NO MONEY right?

Katharine Kerr

None at all, right.

Mary Rosenblum

What is your thought on publishing in this type of market, Katharine?

Katharine Kerr

Depends on what you write. If it's poetry you'll have little choice,

or very experimental fiction. If you write genre, don't do it. It cheapens your image.

bingocliff

How do you handle writer's block in revising?

Katharine Kerr

Bingo, that's a tough state to be in. First thing, look at your attitude.

Do you think revising means failure? If so, keep telling yourself it's not.

Second, start very small. "Today, I revise one sentence! That's all." Next day, two sentences.

Or, you can hunt for the easiest changes -- take out extra adjectives, or replace weak verbs,

that kind of thing. Once you start, momentum will build.

Mary Rosenblum

I like that idea of starting very small...say one sentence! No matter how blocked you are, you should be able to handle that!

Katharine Kerr

Exactly. Same thing goes for first draft, of course. Just one sentence, then one paragraph

then one page. Calvinistic gloom will not help at all. Remember: anyone can write one

sentence. If you don't like, you can revise it!

Mary Rosenblum

That's excellent advice!

paige

I was baffled when an editor asked for me to lengthen a fiction piece. I did so. It was rejected, but the editor's added suggestions how to revise would have made my short story (already too long for most mags,) into a book. Should I keep writing?

Katharine Kerr

Paige, do you mean "writing on this piece" or "writing, period?"

paige

I mean writing on the piece.

Katharine Kerr

Paige, well then, you might actually have enough material for a book

and if you want to write a short piece, you may need to trim your original idea

way down. Did the editor say "lengthen because parts read as rushed, thin, sketchy?"

If the editor did say those things, then you are cramming too much story into the page limit.

Mary Rosenblum

There is such a thing as a novel length story idea!

Katharine Kerr

Yes, and sometimes there are ideas that turn out to be many novels.

gail

Regarding revisions, my problem is not avoiding them, rather it is more a question of when is there enough revision -- or more aptly, revisionSSSSS. :-) In striving for "publishable perfection" I feel I often revise a story to death! Any suggestions or recommendations?

Katharine Kerr

I am a victim of that. Deverry started as a short story.

Gail, first of all, stories don't have to be perfect to be published.

There is only so much you can learn from a given piece of work

Ask a friend or relative if they think you are a perfectionist and

if they say yes, then you need to be firm with yourself.

If you've been through everything thrice, it's probably all you can do.

Try sending it to an editor and see if they ask for revisions or reject out of hand .

If the latter, the piece still has problems.

paja

How does a beginning writer distinguish a beloved phrase that needs revision from one that is ok?

Katharine Kerr

Paja, most beloved phrases are cliches and need removal. If it sounds really good

and is repeated more than twice, it's probably a cliche. I know someone who thought

a "picture of misery" was wonderful and new. She was upset when I made her change . it but

it had to go. Here's where readers come in handy, too.

paige

The editor said my hero should stay on his quest. So indicated I should keep writing the piece longer.

Katharine Kerr

Paige, a hero on a question usually takes a whole book, yes

but beware of making it a quest like all others.

lochnessmummy

How does one lengthen a piece?

Katharine Kerr

Lochness, it depends why the piece is too short. If it's just a matter of wanting

to make it longer to get more money, don't. If however the story feels rushed, then

look first at the characters. Are they truly fleshed out? Where do they exist .

Does the world feel solid and real? If not, you can add more world-building, more detail

Katharine Kerr

with the characters, show them interacting more with each other and their world.

mbvoelker

There's detail revising of specific phrases and big picture revising of plotline, character issues, and so on. Do you tackle one at a time or both together?

Katharine Kerr

MB, it pays to do the big ones first. If you try to do the small revisions first, you may find

that you need to cut the passage you just worked so hard on.

mbvoelker

Do you have a method that you use on all your work or do you revise differently on different pieces?

Katharine Kerr

I revise short pieces and novels quite differently. With short stories, I write the story through

3 times. The standard form is "first draft to find the story, second to put in all the stuff

that got left out, and third to take out all the stuff that doesn't belong.

I write novels in a very eccentric way, so I revise them so as well . . . I write key scenes

from the entire book, then weave them together, revising as I go. Don't try this at home.

doodledorry

Do editors often ask for revisions from the author, and if so, why would they reject the piece?

Katharine Kerr

DD, editors often ask for revisions, or at least, the good ones do. Most editors these days

are underpaid and overworked, so they can't really give you the detailed editing they

used to. If I were you, I'd never do the revisions they ask for UNTIL they give you a contract.

Some editors have been known to string writers along, suggesting a ton of revisions

and not buying in the end. They do it just in case you turn out to be a genius, I guess.

Mary Rosenblum

And end up with the most polished story in the universe!

red2

An editor wanted me to revise a story and resubmit. They wanted to give it a new title. When I resubmit should I use their title or would that be putting the "cart before the horse"?

Katharine Kerr

Use their title, especially if that's the only revision. With short stories asking the submitter

to revise first isn't such a big deal. I need to clarify that. It's only with novels that

you should hold out for the contract first.

chatty lady

Is there a certain price you should hold out for? Say for a short story Mystery of say, 2500 tgo 5000 words. They offer and first rights..Seems cheap to me for all that work or am I being dumb?

Katharine Kerr

Seems cheap to me, too, but then I don't know the mystery market.

Market rates do differ.

Mary Rosenblum

I do. It's VERY cheap. You should get about $100 - $250 for that length.

Katharine Kerr

Aha! I shall remember that, now.

lochnessmummy

Why not try your novel-writing method ourselves?

Katharine Kerr

Because it's very easy to get utterly confused. I am used to being confused . . . but

I don't want to be charged with leading others astray. If it works for you, do it

but it can be tricky unless you're obsessed with your material, as I am. :-)

doodledorry

Is there a way to know what is a cliche and what is not?

Katharine Kerr

Well, have you seen the phrase in other books? Heard it on TV? Used it in ordinary conversation?

If so, it's trite if indeed it's not technically a cliche. For a long time for instance

TV reporters talked about things "going terribly wrong", an effective phrase ruined

by too much repetition.

kplano

It seems to me that most people use cliches when speaking. Do editors like or dislike the use of cliches in dialogue?

Katharine Kerr

That depends on where and when the story is set. For a modern or futuristic setting

some cliches in dialog are acceptable. For fantasy and historicals, they can grate.

Especially make sure that the dialog in a historical does not use cliches like "three strikes"

taken from modern life! In Deverry I've made up a list of its own cliches

but still, how people -really- talk is often too tedious for fiction.

nancyann

By "readers" come in handy, do you mean friends?

Katharine Kerr

Friends, yes, or a writing group should you belong to one.

arfelin

Is it ok for an author to ask an editor to make a small revision after the story was sold?

Katharine Kerr

Before the story's been set up in type, yes. After -- that will depend on how long the revision is and how overworked

the editor is. Do it as soon as possible.

Mary Rosenblum

I recently spotted a hole in a mystery story I submitted to Janet Hutchings at Ellery Queen

and emailed her immediately. It wasn't typeset yet, and she was happy to let me make the story better!

Katharine Kerr

Most editors are thrilled with self-improvement, yes. :-)

bingocliff

Did not Jack London keep submitting his work until an Editor accepted same?

Katharine Kerr

Bingo, I don't know.

Mary Rosenblum

I've heard that he was rejected many times before he sold.

I think the question is, should he keep sending rejected stories out?

Katharine Kerr

Hemingway papered a hotel room with rejection slips before he sold "Sun Also Rises".

Bingo, if a story's been rejected by one editor, by all means try another editor.

If you majorly revise, then you could try the same one again but not immediately

UNLESS he asks you to revise and resubmit.

Then do it right away.

mel

There are sections in good composition texts on common cliches. The ones that bother me nowadays are the ones borrowed from computer language and tecnical jargon; ie: paramaters instead of limits, using "access" as a verb instead of a noun, and the expression "at this point in time'

Katharine Kerr

Mel, those bother me too, unless I'm reading about computers or geeks.

Most cliches use too many words to make a point, such as "at this point in time" instead of "now".

Many cliches also don't make much sense if you analyze them, such as "raining cats and dogs".

mbvoelker

Do you have a checklist for revisions that you use to keep track of various phases? Do you revise according to a plan or on instinct?

Katharine Kerr

Instinct, now. Plans are good, however, especially if you're new to writing, and

double especially for a long work. Remember: big changes first

then clean up details, and finally, do the prose work.

paja

Is it possible to revise too much and if so how do you avoid it?

Katharine Kerr

You are revising too much if you refuse to show your work to anyone

because it's "not good enough". You are also revising too much if you spend a long time

making little one or two word changes. To avoid it, make sure you show your work

after the third time through to a trusted friend at least, if not an editor .

You don't want to get stale by going over and over the same ground. Work should be polished

but not have the surface polished away.

chatty lady

Once an editor has bought your story, contract signed, check cashed can the editor change things in the story/article?

Katharine Kerr

Chatty, not without out your permission, unless you have signed a contract stating that

they can. don't. Ever. No one should change your words but you.

gail

Is it unwise then to use cliched dialogue, or perhaps mangled-cliched dialogue, as a form of characterization?

Katharine Kerr

Gail, you can use it -sparingly-. Try to find one or two utterances that type the person

rather than giving them pages of boring dialog. Being written down magnifies dialog

so that 1 use can stand for 4 or 5. Same goes for "bad" language.

writerx

I have read books that I sometimes feel have too much detail...does it depend on the publisher as to much detail you put into a story?? Or should you over detail and revise if asked??

Katharine Kerr

WriterX, no, it doesn't depend on the publisher. "Too much detail" is often a matter of taste

rather than writing skill. Consider Proust, for instance -- some love all the detail, some can't get through

page one. How much depends too on what kind of writing . For mainstream literary

the level of detail is part of the structure. For horror or SF short stories, a lot of detail

will seem to "bog the story down" or make it too slow.

mbvoelker

Can you talk about revising to enhance the style, spirit, and freshness of your work? I have heard many writers complain that revising takes the life out of their stories. For me its the reverse, I love revising and polishing, but it seems to be a very common problem.

Katharine Kerr

MB, I too love to revise. I've heard that "takes the life out" complaint, or perhaps excuse

would be the better world. :-) A writer doesn't revise to please him or herself. A writer

revises to please the eventual readers of the work. Since they will read the final draft

for the first time, the life will be there for them. Yes, revising can make one's work

seem stale or lifeless, but the writer's opinion isn't the one that counts

unless of course the story was half-dead to begin with.

What counts is craft. If you have respect for craft, that will keep the story alive for you.

nancyann

Is it difficult to be published under a pen name and paid to your legal name?

Katharine Kerr

No, not at all, Nancyann. When an editor accepts your work, tell them that this is what

you'd like to do. But check out the copyright laws -- things published under a penname

have different terms of copyright length.

red2

One editor is very firm in stating that she wants submissions done on the computer to have only single spaces between sentences. Is this the way the editors want this done now or just this one particular editor's request?

Katharine Kerr

I've never heard of that before, Red, so we can assume it's just her. Most prefer 2 spaces.

gail

While I always consider ANY note of reply from an editor as positive, their comments can sometimes be ambiguous. Was it just a litltle helpful critique or was it a revision request? Is it okay to contact that editor to establish what his intent was?

Katharine Kerr

Unless the letter says clearly that he/she wants you to revise and resubmit, it's a little helpful critique.

Mary Rosenblum

Katharine, do you want to share your revision of SNARE with us? I gather it was unusual?

Katharine Kerr

It was very unusal. In fact, I have two Odd Revision Tales. First, SNARE.

I wrote the first draft of SNARE, a science fiction novel, in 1984, as a fantasy novel.

My agent was sending the first Deverry book around to editors and to avoid anxiety

I wrote another book. Fortunately, Deverry sold, because the fantasy book "A Snare for theHunter"

was pretty lousy. It was generic, it was trite, and the religions in it were particularly badly done.

So there the manuscript sat till the very early '90s, when it suddenly dawned on me

that it needed to be science fiction. This meant a complete reworking of almost everything

but some of the main characters. I started to revise in '94, just the first 100 pages

to see if the change of venue and genre would help. It did, mightily, but I had no more time

to work on it until last year. I sold the book on the basis of that 100 pages and the proposal,

but as I wrote, the proposal dropped away, as it were, and the book changed again, though

not as drastically. Once I had the complete story done, I revised twice myself, then

sent if off to the editor, who had a page of notes, and that was that. But if I'd been

unwilling to work hard at revising that first version, the book never would have sold.

A lesson in that, of course. :-)

Mary Rosenblum

Now I understand why the book has the lush feel of a fantasy world,

something I found wonderful after many spare SF books! And it's also a lesson

in never throwing away a story that didn't work!

Katharine Kerr

Except the fantasy world was thin, Mary, very thin -- and I changed it completely.

Mary Rosenblum

It's far from thin, now!

Katharine Kerr

All the lush details came in the SF version.

Thanks! I personally dislike spare SF books. They if anything should be fully realized.

In my never humble opinion of course. The current trend toward no characters, no world

is something I heartily dislike.

Mary Rosenblum

I highly recommend the book as an excellent example of a very well created universe, with a lot of depth! It's a very real society and culture.

And a good read!

Katharine Kerr

Thank you again!

Second Odd Tale -- would anyone like to see that?

Mary Rosenblum

Oh yes.

Let's hear that first!

Katharine Kerr

This concerns the first Deverry Book, DAGGERSPELL, which started life as a mess.

Actually, Dagger- and Darkspell were one book, originally, of over 1,000 pages

but the editor who bought it told me it needed to be two books, and since he was going to pay

for two I saw no reason to argue. So I did the revisions he wanted, and sent them in.

He accepted them and paid the second installment of the advance, but there was

a delay in publication just because of a backlog at Doubleday. So I looked over

the last 250 pages of Dagger and realized that I had it all wrong, that the plot was weak

and that I had wasted a real opportunity. So I completely rewrote it, changing the location,

some characters, and many events. The editor was staggered, but he agreed

that the new version was much better, so he used it. Moral: it's never too late to revise.

paja

Did the former fantasy book have the same title as the revision?

Katharine Kerr

You mean SNARE, Paja? No, the fantasy was "a snare for the hunter," and the current

volume is just SNARE.

chatty lady

Are you Katherine Kerr in all your books or do you write under another name, like Mary?

Katharine Kerr

Chatty, as of yet, I write only as Katharine Kerr. If I ever move to another genre,

I may have to change my name, but I hope not.

writerx

when a publisher accepts a book, do they usually ask you to tell them about other stories you made have?

Katharine Kerr

Writerx, no, unless the stories are set in the same universe with the same characters.

In fact, it might not be a good idea to tell too much. You don't want to give them

an unintentional option on new work.

Mary Rosenblum

So when do you begin revising, Katharine? With the second draft?

Katharine Kerr

Mary, it depends. I wait for the second draft for short stories, but with novels

I often revise as a I go -if- I'm sure that the section is right in the main lines.

Katharine Kerr

I try to save tiny changes till last, though.

paja

Katherine, why would you feel the need to use a pen-name in another genre?

Katharine Kerr

Some editors demand it. They have contempt for readers, basically, and figure that

a reader who picked up a Kerr book, say, would never realize it wasn't fantasy till

they got it home, and then they'd be angry. I think readers are smarter than that.

mbvoelker

Could you clarify that about an unintentional option?

Katharine Kerr

MB, okay. The basic rule: before the contract is signed, do not make any statements,

even orally, about money and terms. Leave all that to your agent. If you tell an editor on the phone,

Katharine Kerr

"I have this other idea for a book," and then you want to sell that idea elsewhere,

the editor might claim that she has first dibs on it. This is rare, but it pays to be cautious

and what is not rare are incautious remarks about money. Never tell an editor

that you'll settle for a given sum. Your agent should be free to squeeze as much cash

as possible out of the editor.

Mary Rosenblum

And your agent will be VERY angry with you if you talk money with an editor. That is HER job, not yours!

Katharine Kerr

You betcha!

writerx

As an unpublished writer (as of yet!) do you have any suggestions about what should be written in the credits section of a cover letter...or should you leave out?

Katharine Kerr

If you don't have any credits, it's unwise to list them. :-) Editors aren't interested in, say,

your day job where you write up descriptions of houses for sale or some such.

Katharine Kerr

Your cover letter will show that you can write clear English.

writerx

Agent.... when should you get one?

Katharine Kerr

Get an agent as soon as possible. It's best to have a finished book before you even

send queries, if you write fiction. If you have a non-fiction book, a proper proposal might

get you an agent earlier. Many agents won't handle short stories at all, because

they don't earn much money. My own agents have a website with a lot of good information

on agents in general : larsen-pomada.com is the URL. They are very selective, but

the site tells how to apply to agents in general and has other information.

Mary Rosenblum

You can also visit the website of the Association of Authors' Representatives...the pro agents organization...

their site has a ton of information for agent-shoppers, including questions to ask, how to avoid scams, and contact info. It is at

l http://www.aar-online.org/index.html Association of Authors' Representative homepage.

Worth the visit!

Katharine Kerr

Scams abound, yes. The SFWA website has information on SF and fantasy agents

who have proven less than reliable, too.

Mary Rosenblum

There are links on the Long Ridge website to that and other 'author beware' websites.

Katharine Kerr

As a general rule, agents should not charge "reading fees."

Mary Rosenblum

The AAR prohibits it. And if your prospective agent does not belong...there's a reason!

bingocliff

What constitutes tiny changes in revision?

Katharine Kerr

A good agent may take you on and then ask for revisions. These days editors

are overworked and expect agents to present only sellable books.

Tiny revisions are word changes, such as "The fort was two buildings and a tower" to "The stone

tower loomed over the two rough wooden sheds inside the walls."

And also copyediting stuff, correcting misspellings and punctuation.

writerx

Wonderful, very helpful...thank you

Katharine Kerr

You're welcome!

Mary Rosenblum

You have indeed been very helpful! And we've worked you hard!

Any parting advice on the process of revision?

Katharine Kerr

That's what I signed up for, Marty.

mbvoelker

What takes you longer, the big sweeping changes or the fine details of polishing?

Mary Rosenblum

One final question here!

Katharine Kerr

Parting advice: do it. Always revise. Don't listen to writers who insist they never

revise but still get published. Maybe once or twice they do

but really, revising your work properly is also about self-respect and respect for your craft

A book or story is a public statement. You don't go out in public half-dressed, do you?

bingocliff

This was a great forum, thank you Katharine and Mary

Katharine Kerr

Big changes take longer than polishing.

Thank you, everyone, for coming!

Mary Rosenblum

Katharine, you did a great job! Thank you so much for coming, and thank you all

for your excellent questions! I hope you'll come back some time, Katharine!

Katharine Kerr

I'd like to, Mary. This has been fun.

Mary Rosenblum

Bingo wants to know what your favorite baseball team is, Katharine.

Katharine Kerr

San Francisco Giants!

Mary Rosenblum

Aha! :-)

We'll let you go rest your fingers! This has indeed been fun.

Katharine Kerr

In my youth I was an Indians fan of course, but one matures…J

Mary Rosenblum

and I look forward to doing this again!

Katharine Kerr

Great. Bye, all!

Mary Rosenblum

Good bye Katharine. Thanks for coming!