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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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Welcome to our Tuesday Forum.
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you all had a great
weekend!
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mary rosenblum
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. If you're new here, remember
that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble'
next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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We've talked about beginnings
and endings in our last two Forums, so we really need to talk about middles
in order to really complete the set here. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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And for many writers, the
middle is the real roadblock.
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mary rosenblum
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Especially if you're working
on a novel.
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mary rosenblum
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But even a short story can
fizzle out in the middle, leaving you without enough of a dramatic arc to
make the story compelling.
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mary rosenblum
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So what IS a middle?
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mary rosenblum
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And what does it need to do?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, if you think of the
beginning as the problem that confronts your main character(s)...
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mary rosenblum
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and the end as the resolution
of that problem...
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mary rosenblum
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your middle adds interest. Here,
you throw obstacles in the way of your characters.
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mary rosenblum
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It's no fun if solving that
problem is TOO easy!
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mary rosenblum
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You can realize you've
misplaced your car keys as you get ready to leave for an appointment...
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mary rosenblum
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search the house, find
'em...that's a conflict and resolution, folks. You want to pay money to
read that?
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mary rosenblum
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But if our MC gets herself
trapped in a secret room she discovers as she searches for those keys...
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mary rosenblum
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and might end up there for
weeks, finally figuring out a way to escape...
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mary rosenblum
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that's much more of a story.
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christopher dale
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the middle of my novel is where
the MC started really getting the action going. Where he started getting
personal with the revenge,m and not just planing it. Where he was
introduced to his (later) new love interest.
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mary rosenblum
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The middle is probably a very
good place to introduce that love interest. :-) Novel subplots often add
that dramatic tension to the middle of the novel...
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mary rosenblum
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but my pacing alarms are going
off when you tell me the plot action doesn't really begin until there...
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mary rosenblum
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Maybe his planning is really
really interesting, but you might think hard about that!
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of novel writers charge
into that novel...
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mary rosenblum
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writing gung-ho for maybe 50
pages as their plot gets underway, they show us the characters...
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mary rosenblum
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and then they hit a block.
Many many never finish the novel.
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mary rosenblum
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They know where they want to
end up....they just have this huge flat uninviting plain to cross first.
:-)
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christopher dale
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This is why I am rewriting it -
The first 7 chapters intro all characters that have a big part, and give
their backgrounds and such. 7 wiu the actual murder. Then 8 - 10 is his
trying the LEGAL way. 11 - 15 he starts planning his revenge and getting
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christopher dale
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his friends together and
bumbling several things up. 16 - is the "rest of the story" :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I really strongly suggest that
you get to that murder in two. Three if your character intros are VERY
dramatic. But two is better, Chris.
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mary rosenblum
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Let us learn more about your
characters in the middle...
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mary rosenblum
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that's a very good use for it.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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You can use strong character
conflicts to add a lot of dramatic peaks to the space between the plot
start...
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mary rosenblum
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and the climax.
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christopher dale
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This is why I am rewriting, I am
NOT Alistar McLaine... :-0
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christopher dale
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1 is where the murder is... :-)
In the rewrite
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mary rosenblum
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Much better. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If you hit a full stop as you
get to the middle of your story...
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mary rosenblum
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it's time to sit down and take
a look at your plot structure.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about that desert of a middle. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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What I sometimes see in novice
ms, is that the writers resolves the central conflict way too early, or
accidentally renders it 'not a conflict' by...
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mary rosenblum
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setting up a situation that
makes the resolution nearly certain.
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mary rosenblum
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Make sure that your conflict
really will climax and resolve where you originally intended it to.
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seigfried007
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What's the difference between
needing a break and hitting the brakes?
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mary rosenblum
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I'm not quite sure what you
mean by that, seig. Can you be a bit more specific?
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geezer
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In my novel the hero goes to
fetch his reluctant bride for their arranged wedding. The encounter 5 major
hurdles along the way home. I don't want it to sound like the perils of
Pauline. Is their a rule of thumb as to how much/many complications are
enough?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, geezer, just from your
thumbnail here, I'd say that if the external obstacles are all that is in
the way of success for your MC, you run a good chance...
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mary rosenblum
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of doing 'Perils of Pauline'
no matter how many/few encounters you have.
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mary rosenblum
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If the major conflict is that
she is a reluctant bride and if she doens't change her mind, he's out of
luck...
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mary rosenblum
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that internal conflict can be
the backbone that carries the story...
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mary rosenblum
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your encounters can slowly
break down her hostility and show them gradually bonding...
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mary rosenblum
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and you'll know when enough is
enough.
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mary rosenblum
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In that case, the internal
conflict is the dominant one, and the encounters are obstacles that provide
peaks of drama in the middle...
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mary rosenblum
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and slowly rise to the climax,
since we see them getting closer, to the stakes are higher each time...
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mary rosenblum
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if they both survive, the
chances are greater that they will 'live happily ever after'. (to over
simplify)
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seigfried007
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Needing a break from the story
vs hitting the roadblock of creativity.
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, thanks for clarifying. The
main difference, seig, is...do you go back.
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mary rosenblum
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I always stop as soon as I
don't rush instantly into the next scene.
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mary rosenblum
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I go do something else.
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mary rosenblum
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If I just need a break, I find
myself waking up at 2 AM and thinking about what happens next...
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mary rosenblum
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or while I'm running
erands...some time. And then I go back.
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mary rosenblum
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If that just doesn't happen,
doesn't happen...then I figure I've hit a wall on the story. Something is
broken and I need to figure out what.
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mary rosenblum
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I have one like that right
now, 3/4 done...about 8000 words to date.
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mary rosenblum
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It's broken. Haven't figured
out how to fix it yet. But eventually I will. :-)
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seigfried007
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LOL! 3/4s here--but 150K
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mary rosenblum
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Oooh, honey, I sure hope you
plan to do some trimming when you finish the first draft! :-).
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mary rosenblum
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However, three quarters of the
way done...
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mary rosenblum
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is probably not an issue about
'middle' but more an indication that...
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mary rosenblum
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your end isn't going to work
as you envisioned it.
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cosmos
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I'm finding that by learning how
to write a screenplay, it helps to understand how to craft novels and all
stories. The hero's inner journey and the hero's outer journey. Starting
with the setup of what the normal life is like, then comes the opportunity
and a new situation. Then a big change of plans, then progress. The point
of no return comes leading to complication and higher stakes. A major
setback, final push, climax and aftermath. I highly recommend books by
Michael Hauge and Christopher Vogler. The Hero's Two Journeys is by both
writers. www.timberwolfpress.com
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, except you need to be
very careful about becoming formulaic, cosmos. Hollywood works in
formula...
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mary rosenblum
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you pitch to producers in
formula.
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mary rosenblum
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It does not work nearly as
well in the prose market and if editors identify your formula...if the
bones show, in other words, they may pass on it...
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mary rosenblum
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for a story where the formula
is warped, bent, twisted, or simply ignored. :-)
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seigfried007
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feeling bogged down in all the
details and heaviness of the plot
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mary rosenblum
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I"m not surprised, seig.
That is a VERY long novel. You might want to sit down and outline it
chapter by chapter in detail...and then seriously ask yourself...
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mary rosenblum
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if you couldn't simplify it.
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mary rosenblum
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Novel drafts are not writ in
stone.
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mary rosenblum
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The story matters, not your
words, and if the words you have right now have let you bog down...
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mary rosenblum
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maybe what you need is a
shovel. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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You might discover that by
seriously simplifying the story, something truely powerful emerges.
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cosmos
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Michael Hauge comes to Portland,
Mary. Is it possible for you to interview him about writing screenplays and
developing story?
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mary rosenblum
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Probably not, cosmos. LR
doesn't offer screenwriting and I really do need to focus on what students
here need, first.
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seigfried007
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to simplify it, I would have to
delete most of my characters
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mary rosenblum
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Well, if the novel isn't
working for you, maybe you need to either reduce some of 'em to minor
characters or delete 'em entirely, seig. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I know that sounds REALLY
daunting, but it's not as hard as it seems when you haven't done it. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If they're not pulling their
weight, or if you simply have too many characters for THIS story...
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mary rosenblum
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promise 'em their own book and
put 'em on the shelf.
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mary rosenblum
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You can use 'em elsewhere.
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seigfried007
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talk about killing your
darlings! LOL
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mary rosenblum
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Oh yeah, it REALLY feels like
that. Been there, done that!
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...what is hard to realize
when you first start out is that your first responsibility is NOT to your
characters, no matter how real they are and how much you love 'em.
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mary rosenblum
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Your first responsiblity is
to...
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mary rosenblum
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...story.
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mary rosenblum
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I have removed characters that
had become real for me, but turned out not to work in the story.
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mary rosenblum
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I rather think that's what's
broken the one I haven't fixed yet, sigh.
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mary rosenblum
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And I really LIKE him a lot.
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geezer
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I cried all morning after I
killed my support character.
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mary rosenblum
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Good. :-) Hopefully that means
your readers will sniffle too, geeze!
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about that desert of a middle. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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tory
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Mary--Ditto your comments about
simplifying. At aconference Davis Bunn discussed just that. I took his
latest book, The Lazarus Trap, and did a chapter by chapter outline. It
really helped me see how to plot, check my dramatic arc, and tighten. When
I re-wrote my MS, it was much crisper.
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mary rosenblum
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Good for you, tory! That's a
lot of work, but well worth your time and energy!
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mary rosenblum
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It takes practice to be able
to 'see' structure in a novel length work.
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rcourt929
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150k words is big for a novel
mary? is there an average length to shhot for?
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mary rosenblum
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Depends on the imprint,
rcourt.
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mary rosenblum
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Read the guidelines for that
imprint.
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mary rosenblum
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They may
specifiy...70,000-100,000 for most mass markets and your average size
hardcover.
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mary rosenblum
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The 'fat' mass markets are
probably 150,000
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of the slender Har-Sil
romances, for example, are only about 50,000.
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mary rosenblum
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But other romance imprints
from Har-Sil are 80,000 - 100,000.
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mary rosenblum
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But it is not a really really
good idea in this age of minimal profit margins on paper books to TRY for
over 150,000 words.
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mary rosenblum
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It'll be much harder to sell
and will really really have to knock an editors socks off...
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mary rosenblum
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because the publisher will not
want to risk that much money on an unpublished author.
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mary rosenblum
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Publishing reality 101.
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gwanny
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Mary, do you think it is better
to have a small number of characters and concentrate on making them come
alive in the middle? Hope that makes sense
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mary rosenblum
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It certainly does, gwanny, and
yes, I certainly do.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have a cast of
thousands, even if those characters are vividly protrayed, we don't get to
spend a lot of time...
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mary rosenblum
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with any one individual.
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mary rosenblum
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So our intimacy is limited. And
readers get confused easily when you get into five or seven or nine main
characters!
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cosmos
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Romances are built on formula
and there are certain structure elements needed for a mystery and other
genres. So what is a good book to read about structure for a novel?
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mary rosenblum
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There's no one book cosmos
because there is no one way to structure a novel.
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mary rosenblum
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Understanding plot helps. If
you're writing for a particular genre, understanding how that genre is
structured helps.
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mary rosenblum
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Essentially, a strong central
conflict and resolution, supported by the subplot conflicts and resolutions
is what you are after.
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mary rosenblum
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They should converge, the
subplots should support your plot, tie in, in some way, rather than
subtracting reader attention from the main plot.
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mary rosenblum
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You can do single or parallel
construction...
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mary rosenblum
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and a parallel construction,
while more challenging for a novice, is certainly one way around a flat
middle! :-)
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mary rosenblum
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You are not looking for a
single type of structure that will 'wow' an editor.
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mary rosenblum
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You are writing a story that
will 'wow' an editor...
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mary rosenblum
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and however you do that is
right.
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mary rosenblum
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Beware of books that tell you
'do it this way'.
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mary rosenblum
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Some are good...Donald Maas's
book, for example...Writing the Breakout Novel.
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mary rosenblum
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But he is simply presenting
the structural formula for a thriller.
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mary rosenblum
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It isn't going to work for
every type of story.
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mary rosenblum
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Trying to force YOUR story
into a particular mold may well be its undoing if it won't fit that mold.
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mary rosenblum
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That said, if you want to
write for a very formulaic market like Romance or some of the mystery
lines... (not all)...
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mary rosenblum
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then you really do need to
understand that formula and design your story to work within its limits.
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mary rosenblum
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If you just want to write a
'good novel', write it.
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mary rosenblum
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THEN figure out where you can
take it.
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mary rosenblum
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SF by the way, is one of the
genres that is pretty relaxed about structure. :-) Like mainstream.
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lore alley
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Mary, I missed the
"ends" forum. I was wondering if I need to know the end of the
story when I begin? Sometimes it comes to me as I write, and sometimes it
changes completely. Is that okay?
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mary rosenblum
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Lore, it's a good idea to know
what you think it's going to be when you start...simply...
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mary rosenblum
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because if you do not, you may
find that you have wandered all over the landscape on your way to the
end...
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mary rosenblum
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you finally achieve, and then
you'll have to go back and do a LOT of rewriting.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT, on the other hand, your
end derives from the central conflict in the book...
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mary rosenblum
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and you may find that this
central conflict shifts and redefines itself as your characters and
situations become real.
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mary rosenblum
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And your original end may not
fit. I frequently find that I have a different end than the one I
originally envisioned.
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cosmos
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But there needs to be certain
elements in all stories. Right? If you understand the basic structure then
you can be creative with how you tell the story. At least then you know
it's in there. I would appreciate a forum on parallel construction. OR are
you saying that in mainstream and SF, anything goes. You can start with an
idea and see where it carries you.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, I am, cosmos. But also,
yes, you still need structure.
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mary rosenblum
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Some writers couldn't explain
the structure of their well published stories if their lives depended on
it. :-) It's a matter of what 'feels right'.
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mary rosenblum
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But essentially, the structure
of a story is pretty simple, large or small...
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mary rosenblum
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it is compelling characters
with a problem that matters to us, and a resolution that has an impact.
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mary rosenblum
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There are many many ways to
get there. It's not a matter of 'give your character a problem'...
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mary rosenblum
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and in the next scene, he
makes progress toward solving it, and then for two scenes he is defeated,
then he makes progress, is defeated, and now do the climax.
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mary rosenblum
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I'ts not that cut and
dried...although there ARE books out there that will tell you to do just
that.
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mary rosenblum
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The Seven Point Plot being one
infamous one that sets my teeth on edge!
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gwanny
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writing a novel is sort of like
climbing a mountain isn't it? You climb, and reach a shelf where you
examine your next move. You keep that up 7 or 8 times, until you reach the
peak. Going down the other side is sort of a straight slide. Is that about
right?
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mary rosenblum
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Cool analogy, gwanny! Sure
FEELS like climbing that mountain at times, LOL.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about that desert of a middle. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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Essentially, cosmo, to get
back to structure and what it does...
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mary rosenblum
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it's a matter of dramatic
peaks and valleys...
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mary rosenblum
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building toward that final
climax and resolution.
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mary rosenblum
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Balancing your main plot and
subplots if you're working on a novel...
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mary rosenblum
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so that you don't ignore the
main plot for five chapters!
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mary rosenblum
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I really would pick out a book
that you think is very powerful...
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mary rosenblum
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and whose plot you felt was
strong...
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mary rosenblum
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and outline it chapter by
chapter.
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mary rosenblum
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It will give you some insight
into how the author used those dramatic arcs.
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cosmos
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Then it's okay to just start out
and go on an adventure, like gwanny says.
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. There is NOTHING wrong
with that. Just be willing to revise and change...
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mary rosenblum
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because in all likelyhood you
will need to do some big changes once you know what your story's shape is.
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mary rosenblum
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That is how I wrote when I first
started out.
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mary rosenblum
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I didn't have a clue where I
was going.
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mary rosenblum
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once I got there, I went back
and made the story work all the way through.
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mary rosenblum
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Looootss of work. I"m
lazy and I write MANY fewer words for each project now. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But it took me time to be able
to see structure rather than figure it out by doing it.
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nicole098
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this sentence "I knew it
belongs to me." Would I add ed or s
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mary rosenblum
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It's I knew it belonged to me,
nicole. Knew is past tense. The verb tenses need to agree, so we need
belonged, not belongs. :-)
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cosmos
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I'm keeping a large notebook for
book notes on books I'm reading to analyze plot, etc.
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mary rosenblum
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Great way to do it, cosmos.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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It's much easier to see craft
in other peoples work than in your own.
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lore alley
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I prefer to have an idea first.
but I have a few stories that I have NO idea where they're going. I just
know that I LOVE the characters
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mary rosenblum
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Laughing, lore. I STILL do
that now and again!
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mary rosenblum
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I am a little over halfway
through a 10,000 words YA fantasy due for an anthology in November...
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mary rosenblum
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I had a really cool dream and
just started with that. :-) Had NO clue where the story was going, how it
would end...
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mary rosenblum
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and it has been slow going
because of that, but fun. :-)
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bettyp
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Does becoming a writer ruin your
love for reading?
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mary rosenblum
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No, betty, but it does make
you a much pickier reader, sigh.
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mary rosenblum
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You'll find that you just
aren't tolerant of bad writing and there is a lot of it out there.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm back.
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mary rosenblum
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Got to watch for that hole in
the stage floor.
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bettyp
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example Dorothy Garlock-formula
obvious but fascinating
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mary rosenblum
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Yeah, the more you write, the
more your tolerance tends to shrink, betty. :-)
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seigfried007
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LOL again Mary! my behemoth
started as a nightmare that was too weird not to do something with--it just
took me forever to get the idea that would combine teh dreams!
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mary rosenblum
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dreams are useful at times,
Seig. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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There really is nothing wrong
with just sitting down and writing, see where the characters take you.
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mary rosenblum
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That doesn't mean your job is
done at the end of draft one...
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mary rosenblum
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once you know the characters
and their story...
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mary rosenblum
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it's your job to make it a
strong story and make sure they are real to the readers, not just to you.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about that desert of a middle. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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One of the ways you can help
yourself if you find yourself stalled in the middle of a story or a
novel...
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mary rosenblum
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is to simply find something to
throw in the path of your MC.
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mary rosenblum
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Use your imagination. What
complication will make your MC's life difficult in an interesting way?
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mary rosenblum
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Look at your other, minor
characters.
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mary rosenblum
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Can you cause some kind of
conflict between MC and someone else?
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mary rosenblum
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Can you throw in an external
event that will complicate matters? Car crash?
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mary rosenblum
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Lost child?
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mary rosenblum
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Visiting Mother in Law?
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mary rosenblum
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Of course you'll have to find
a way to make it matter to the main plot and make it plausible.
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mary rosenblum
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But that's your job as author.
It really is sweat-labor at times. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Some of my strongest scenes
have come about because I had to do something about a flat middle...
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mary rosenblum
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so I came up with some kind of
complication that turned out to really support the plot...
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mary rosenblum
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and really improve the story.
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mary rosenblum
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If you find yourself bogged
down start playing the 'what if' game.
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mary rosenblum
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What if this happened? What if
that happened?
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mary rosenblum
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Extrapolate, see how it
affects your story.
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mary rosenblum
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The middle of the story gives
you room to develop your character (internal) conflict, if it is not your
main conflict...
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mary rosenblum
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or to add interesting external
conflicts if the internal IS you main conflict.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a good place to put in a
bit of romance.
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mary rosenblum
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A small conflict with another
character that gives your MC greater insights or understanding at the end
of the story or even at the climax.
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mary rosenblum
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A very common problem with
novice writers is that they get TOO focused on their main plot.
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mary rosenblum
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Relax and throw in some
interesting side trips.
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mary rosenblum
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Even in a short story, you
have room for a brief and vivid encounter...
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mary rosenblum
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that affects the way your MC
deals with the end.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...do make sure that these
small conflicts and subplots do matter in some way to the main plot.
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mary rosenblum
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Or they will be pretty obvious
for what they are...devices to add interest to a flat middle.
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mary rosenblum
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It may also be the case that
you simply have so many subplots and characters that your middle has become
'blurry', the main plotline lost...
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mary rosenblum
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as you try to follow all the
various charaters and their doings.
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mary rosenblum
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That might be what's giving
you trouble, seig.
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seigfried007
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LOL!!
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of flat middles are
simply too long.
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mary rosenblum
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Character travel interminably.
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mary rosenblum
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Nothing much happens.
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mary rosenblum
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You may simply need to take a
huge tuck in that middle and add more scenes to beginning and end.
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seigfried007
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11+1 POV characters... leaves a
lot of room if you make sure that each has his/her/its own issues to
resolve... and leave room for intrigue...
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seigfried007
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or too much happens
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mary rosenblum
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That is an AWFUL lot of POV
characters, seig! Whew!
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mary rosenblum
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I think I'd have a hard time
keeping 'em all straight!
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seigfried007
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and that's not all the major
characters--i'm chronicalling a sci-fi war...
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seigfried007
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end-of-the-world type stuff
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mary rosenblum
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Sounds as if you might want to
think about structuring this as a multibook series and focus on say, three
or maybe four characters per book, seig.
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mary rosenblum
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Do an overarching plot and
divide it into three standalones, linked by that greater plot.
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seigfried007
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bout ready to rush to the
finish, ignore tying the knots, and throw it at people to read
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mary rosenblum
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Reader feedback is probably a
good idea, seig. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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It always is, in my opinion.
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mary rosenblum
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To sort of sum things up,
middles really don't need to be a desert...
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mary rosenblum
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and they can seem like it
because either not enough happens or too much happens
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mary rosenblum
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Using your imagination to add
new obstacles to your character(s) lives is one way to add to the middle.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a great place to deepen
character through character conflicts.
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mary rosenblum
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It may also need a few tucks
if you simply detail action that doesn't need to be detailed...
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mary rosenblum
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or may need to be simplified
if you simply have too many characters all demanding their time on stage.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
'Oregon Hour'. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript in
the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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Do drop in here tomorrow...
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mary rosenblum
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same time...for our casual
chat.
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mary rosenblum
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We just get together to talk
about whatever.
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks for coming all, and
have a good day!
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mary rosenblum
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Good luck with your eleven POV
characters, seig!
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mary rosenblum
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See what your readers say.
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mary rosenblum
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Bye all!
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