Thought and Internal Narrative

Mary Rosenblum

Hello all.

Mary Rosenblum

I hope you had a fine weekend and that spring is at least peaking over the horizon.

Mary Rosenblum

I thought I'd come back to the topic of internal POV and thought, since a lot of novice writers either under use this powerful tool

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or struggle with how to use it well.

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In first person POV thought is pretty indistinguishable from the first person voice....that speaker is narrating the story and tells us his/her thoughts

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just as he/she tells us what is going on in the scene.

Mary Rosenblum

First person is pretty much entirely internal narrative except for actual dialogue with other characters.

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In third person, it is a very useful window into your character's thoughts and feelings and help create a strong sense of character in that POV.

geezer

I have trouble telling the difference between internal dialogue and "telling" when I see it even in a writing book.

Mary Rosenblum

Of course it really IS telling geeze.

Mary Rosenblum

Just as all of first person is telling.

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But the trick is to make it seem as if the character is doing the telling through his/her thoughts rather than you, the author,

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breaking into the story to tell us.

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Let's look at an example.

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Carole hung her jacket in her locker. She had worked at this nursing home for three years now, and was one of the junior aides. The rich businessman who owned the facility

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rarely promoted his staff and left the administration of the Pine View Nursing Care to the head nurse, a sixty year old woman named Rachel Brown.

Mary Rosenblum

Okay, this is cleary the author filling in backstory, right?

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It's not awfully likely that Carole will think all this as she hangs up her jacket on a Monday morning, right?

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Why should she?

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And that is one of two keys to deciding whether that bit of narrative is the character thinking or the author telling.

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Key one: Why does she think it? If you can't answer that plausibly, it's the author talking.

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Here, I can't think of a reason for her to be thinking all this right now.

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She knows it all.

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Key two: Vocabulary.

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If the word choices, idiom, voice belong to the character, then it's the character's internal narrative.

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If the word choices, idiom, voice do not belong to the POV character, then it's the author talking.

geezer

It would be so much clearer to me if "I" was used in the internal dialogue rather than the third person "she". But, I'm told that is not correct.

Mary Rosenblum

I'ts not incorrect, it's simply 'clunky' and sounds phony to readers.

Mary Rosenblum

When was the last time you thought: I have worked for Pine View nursing home for three years and the rich businessman who owns it rarely promotes the staff and allows sixty year old head nurse, Rachel Brown, to make all the administrative decisions'.

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Now you might plausibly SAY that to a friend if you're explaining why you are thinking of making a job change, right?

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But we do NOT think in dialogue.

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Monitor your own thoughts.

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Generally we think in broken sentences, images, a few words.

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When you say to your readers 'my character thinks if full, grammatically complete sentences'

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your readers answer 'that's nice. Too bad that's not a real person'.

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So let's go back to our 'told' example and come up with a plausible reason for Carole to feed us as much backstory as she can

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through HER thoughts.

geezer

Ex. of what I mean: I pondered that. yesterday. vs. She pondered that yesterday.

Mary Rosenblum

Well, you need to put it into context here.

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Third person: Cannie took the album down from the shelf. Who was right, Granny B or Bethuselah? I pondered that yesterday, she thought.

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Cannie took the album down from the shelf. Who was right, Granny B or Bethuselah. She pondered that yesterday. The answer still eluded her.

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Would she really think 'I pondered that yesterday'?

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That is the 'essense' of what she knows...that yesterday she spent all day thinking about this issue.

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that is probably not what she actually thinks.

charie'

Damn Rachel Brown anyway. She could have given me that raise to CNA. Pineview's tightwad owner.wouldn't notice. He's never around.

Mary Rosenblum

That's a good way to handle it, Charie. We give Carole a reason to be thinking about Rachel Brown and the boss. She didn't get a raise.

Mary Rosenblum

And we know know that RAchel is in a position to give her that raise but is not the owner.

john p

So, Carole might be thinking about getting a new job but she

john p

doesn't think "I've got to get a new job" or "She's got to

john p

get a new job." Instead she thinks "Got ta get a new job."

Mary Rosenblum

If that's the way she talks, John, that's exactly it.

janecj333

But in some cases I or she are interchangable...they both work. Ex. I don't have any shoes to wear (internal thought), vs. She scowled. She didn't have any shoes to wear.

Mary Rosenblum

Sure. It's not that direct thought is NEVER a good choice. I may look into my closet and think I don't have any shoes that match. Darn it.

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And I may think exactly those words.

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But most of the time, we are not thinking in sentences. Where you really run into problems are where your MC needs to spend a lot

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of time thinking about things as he/she works at a desk so that we know what's going on.

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And as the character drones on and on in 'dialogue' ie direct thought, the less real the character and story become.

geezer

But isn't the "me" supposed to be "her" in charie's ex. if she is in third person?

Mary Rosenblum

No There, Charie has mixed a bit of direct thought 'she could have given ME the raise', with that narrative.

Mary Rosenblum

If she had done it all as direct thought it would have begun to feel phony to readers.

Mary Rosenblum

I generally find that I don't use more than one sentence of direct thought before I switch to narrative form.

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What that does is to give the reader a sense of 'character is thinking' but the narrative form is smoother and less noticeable.

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So the reader perceives 'thought' without being jolted out of the story by unrealistic dialogue form.

builder guy

Example: Puff the magic dragon lived by the sea, he frolicked in the Autum mist in a land called Honolly. Puff looked around at his cave and thought, This place sucks and it stinks too, he dreamed of a nice warm beach not a cold misty one.

Mary Rosenblum

I'm laughing, Builder. Nice example. I turned 'dwelling' into 'cave' though...more specific.

Mary Rosenblum

But yeah... This place sucks and it stinks, too. (his exact - direct --thought) He dreamed of a nice warm beach. (the essense of waht he's actually thinking/feeling...narrative)

crazybasenji

So direct thought is a little like dialog from character to reader? or like a comment?

Mary Rosenblum

It is, crazy, and we don't do dialogue in our heads very often, unless we're carrying on a conversation with the boss (the one we didn't dare have in his office earlier)

Mary Rosenblum

Mostly, if you pay attention, your verbal thoughts tend to be comments, interjections, fragments.

Mary Rosenblum

Most of our thought is less 'verbal'.

janecj333

The best way to learn how to handle thought and narrative both is just to read what other authors do, how they handle it. Don't you think?

Mary Rosenblum

Depends, Jane. If you read good fiction, yes. But not everything that is published is well written.

Mary Rosenblum

I wish that was so, but it's not.

geezer

This bothered a reader: Who'd believe he's venture alone in the city? It was daring. Perhaps foolish. Anyway, he was armed.

Mary Rosenblum

It's a good idea to add a 'sense of the character' in fairly lengthy bits of internal narrative like this to remind the readers that the character is thinking this.

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Who'd believe he'd venture alone into the city? Perth glanced around and thumbed off the safety. It was daring, yeah. Maybe foolish. Anyway, he was armed.

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Take a look at what I did here.

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I made up Perth of course, made him a teenage boy.

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So I tweaked this a bit to sound more like this kid talking to himself. And we see him of course

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which helps anchor this narrative to him rather than the author. I don't think he'd use perhaps as a word. That's my take on his voice.

Mary Rosenblum

I just made it a bit more like he might talk It was daring, yeah. Maybe foolish rather than Perhaps foolish.

nonapapa

Are you suggesting more narrative and less dialogue?

Mary Rosenblum

Goodness no. This is about more narrative and less 'direct thought' since we really don't think in dialogue form.

Mary Rosenblum

Actual dialogue is spoken out loud conversation and that's a whole different thing.

geezer

He's a chief of state

Mary Rosenblum

Well then the vocabular is probably fine. Just add that glimpse of him so that the readers instantly associate this narrative with him.

Mary Rosenblum

A judicious and occasional 'he thought' or 'she thought' will also make your readers aware that this is character thought.

Mary Rosenblum

Learning how to do internal narrative well is a bit difficult, but it will really do a LOT for your prose when you write third person.

builder guy

I have a hard time describing what the character who is telling the story looks like and I don't want to have a mirror shot in the story. Should the characters looks be described by another character? Help !!

Mary Rosenblum

YOu know something odd? You really don't need to describe that person in great detail.

Mary Rosenblum

We all like to cast that MC the way we want to see him/her. So as long as we get gender/general age/general body type/race right, we're all on the same page.

Mary Rosenblum

yeah, the mirror is a recognizable cliche. :-)

Mary Rosenblum

Often, you can let your POV character compare himself to another character. Carl glanced up at Jack. Jack in the beanstalk, he thought. He could comb his hair in Jack's cowboy belt buckle.

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Carl is clearly pretty short.

charie'

Is there any rules as to using italics or quotation marks to designate thought?

Mary Rosenblum

Yeah, don't. :-)

Mary Rosenblum

You use quote marks ONLY for spoken dialogue. Not for thought.

Mary Rosenblum

A lot of publisher style sheets mandage italic for direct thought. I don't like that...it sounds 'loud' or 'different' to readers

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and thought is rarely loud.

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I don't use any special punctuation for my direct thought.

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Sometimes a publisher insists on that italic, but since I don't use much direct thought, I live with it.

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If it intrudes, I'll fight over it.

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One thing I see a lot as folk use internal narrative...paragraphing issues!

Mary Rosenblum

Just as with dialogue, when we see a reference to a character we assume that thought or narrative belongs to that character.

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And if it's a new paragraph, we assume that it's someone else's thought.

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Cara yanked the comb through her hair. Wouldn't ya know Billy would be late. Sandy glared at the silent phone.

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Okay, whose thought is this?

charie'

Could be Martin's for all we know. : - )

Mary Rosenblum

Yep. Be clear.

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Cara yanked the comb through her hair. Wouldn't ya know Billy would be late.

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Sandy glared at the silent phone.

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Cara's thought.

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Cara yanked the comb through her hair.

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Wouldn't ya know Billy would be late? Sandy glared at the silent phone.

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Sandy's thought.

andi

I thought it might be Sandy

Mary Rosenblum

YOu can't tell, andi. If you thought it was Sandy and later on, Cara jumps of Billy for being late, it may jar you right back to this scene to reread.

Mary Rosenblum

This is also where a 'she thought' would be appropriate.

Mary Rosenblum

Sometimes you just need that 'he thought' or 'she thought' to make it clear.

Mary Rosenblum

It's also a way to make a transition from action to internal narrative.

Mary Rosenblum

So that your reader doesn't have to stop and reread when they realize suddenly that this is the POV's thought rather than action.

builder guy

so I guess you can make your character telling the story more detailed with their own thoughts? example: Danny ran his toungue over his chiped tooth, the chip felt sharp and was 1/4 mooned shaped .

Mary Rosenblum

Exactly. If I just broke my tooth, I might be trying to assess the damage. Makes sense that Danny's trying to figure out how bad it is.

nonapapa

does the reader need to be able to identify the narrator?

Mary Rosenblum

Sure. Otherwise you confuse readers utterly.

Mary Rosenblum

Jen perched on the ruined peer. They'd have to deal with Carter somehow. Maybe a stiletto between the ribs, if he wouldn't listen to reason. Catwin leaned back against the half buried hull of the wrecked freighter. "I'm ready to head for the tavern. Maybe we'll find the rest of the gang there."

Mary Rosenblum

Okay, who thinks what here?

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We really don't know who is thinking about dealing with Carter and this might be important if one of these people

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ends up taking a private walk with him later. Do readers anticipate that stiletto in the ribs? Or not?

gskearney

As an old cow'pun'cher I'd rather confuse people 'udderly'

Mary Rosenblum

Well if you confuse them udderly, gary, at least they can have a glass of milk, eh?

nonapapa

would you not think it is the writer providing further detai

Mary Rosenblum

Well, that's why you want to make sure it's clear that it's the POV character's thoughts, non, and not the author.

janecj333

Hopefully, before we get to "Jen perched...", we've established who is the pov for this scene, thus who is narrating.

Mary Rosenblum

Yeah, if this was in the body of the story, we should know who our POV is, LOL.

Mary Rosenblum

But you would be amazed at how often I run into just this situation in the first scene. :-) Not good.

Mary Rosenblum

Well, this has been a good discussion.

Mary Rosenblum

I see a lot of direct thoughts in novice fiction and they really get in the way.

Mary Rosenblum

You're really increase the strenght of your POV is you can master that smooth internal narrative.

charie'

I keep imagining Jen perched on the body of a British Lord. : - )

Mary Rosenblum

Yeah, at times I wish I had spell check here, but that wouldn't have saved me this time. :-)

Mary Rosenblum

It's pier folks, not peer.

Mary Rosenblum

I'll post the transcript in the usual place:

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Writing Craft:Forum Transcripts.

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And if you haven't seen this week's issue of the newsletter, I posted all our finalists from my

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summary contest. You can vote for your one favorite and tell me why it's your favorite.

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It's /ask red...

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In a week or two I'll do another, red.