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Mary Rosenblum
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Hello, all.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Welcome to our Tuesday
Lunchbox Forum.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about editing
today because it's such a huge part of writing and a lot of novice writers
see it as a stumbling block.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's really a critical part of
the writing process, whether you're writing fiction or nonfiction.
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Mary Rosenblum
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When you finish a first draft
you're WAY too close to the piece to see anything other than really obvious
flaws.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You know everything you
intended to say, so you see all that in the piece.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Of course the reader who
doesn't know everything you know may well find some holes.
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Mary Rosenblum
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In fiction, your plot may make
some leaps that unseat readers, or a motivation or cause may not be clear.
r
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Mary Rosenblum
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In nonfiction, you may repeat
yourself accidentally, or fail to make a point clear.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So you really do need to take
a breather from that piece and look at it with 'new eyes' before you send
it out.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's what I call the 'big
picture' revision pas.
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Mary Rosenblum
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One way to regain 'clear eyes'
is to set the piece aside for awhile.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The length of time needed to
'forget' the piece will probably vary for you -- figure out what works best
for you.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Or you may find that you can
go work on something else for awhile -- another article, a story, what have
you
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Mary Rosenblum
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and that change of focus will
give you 'clear eyes'. That's the method I use.
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Mary Rosenblum
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When you come back to the
piece, try to read it as a reader rather than the author.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Does everything make sense? Do
events follow logically? If you're writing NF, doe the piece progress
chronologically?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Is it well organized or do you
skip around?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Once you've finished this
draft and you've fixed any rough spots or 'broken logic' spots, it might be
a good time to give your manuscript to your readers.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I advise against waiting until
you have polished the piece and are ready to send it off. By then, you are
done with it, you are satisfied with it. How happy are you going to be when
readers suggest big changes?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Give your manuscripts to
readers while you think they're still rough. It's much easier to take
advice when yoiu're not done with a piece yet.
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info
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How do you know when your work
of art is/almost done? I find myself having written two almost finished
versions of the same thing. My problem seems to be that I sometimes think
the original just needs a little work or think that I need to write it a
third time to incorporate the first two together. Would I be coming up with
something very much full of holes this way?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Hard to say, info, without
reading the versions. This is where readers can help you. It is VERY hard
to know 'when to quit' when you're a novice.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You don't know why earlier
work has been rejected, since few editors give feedback.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So it's easy to polish and
polish and polish forever. (And a great way to avoid the rejection slip,
too, I might add)
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Mary Rosenblum
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I'd give your favorite version
to a couple or three readers and listen to their comments. Ask specific questions
at the end.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Did you understand this? Did
this make sense to you? Did you realize what had happened?
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Mary Rosenblum
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When you are starting out,
before you have gotten reader feedback from fans so that you know what is
working for you and where you are 'missing' readers, you really do need
some outside input.
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xana
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One's friends tend to say they
like a piece even if they really think it's dreadful; how does one find an
objective reader?
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Mary Rosenblum
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The best place is to meet
other people trying to break into writing. This website is a good place.
:-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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Or you can train your friends
to be good readers.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Include a list of specific
questions at the end. People who are not writers don't know how to be
analytical.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So ask them: Did you like the
character? Were her motivations believable? Could you see the manor house
clearly in the final scene? Did you understand why Josh got angry in the
barnyard scene?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Things like that.
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Mary Rosenblum
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While they may not be able to
tell you things like that on their own, most people can answer specific
questions.
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xana
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Ah, but we all want expert
editors
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Mary Rosenblum
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Then you have to find a
writers group that includes pros. :-) They're out there, but not
necessarily everywhere.
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morgangray
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So spoiled, so early in our
careers...
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well, only if you end up in a
group with some well published writers who are also good critiquers. That's
not real common.
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copper
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Do fans really write and give
feedback to authors? When and where does that happen?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh, goodness yes!
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Mary Rosenblum
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Now, with email, it's easy to
get fan mail. Most writers have an email link on their website, except the
really really big names where they'd get too much.
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Mary Rosenblum
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People tell you at
conferences, at signings, in Post Office lines, for pete's sake, what they
thought of your book.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Mostly folk tell you what
worked for them -- so then you know.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But they'll tell you what
didn't work, too. :-)
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gazebo
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Is there such as thing as too
much criticism or suggestions?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Only if you listen to it,
gazebo.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you try to do everything
everyone tells you, you'll ruin a piece.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Part of editing is learning
how to choose what suggestions work for your piece and what do not.
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barbiq
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should you listen to real
critics
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Mary Rosenblum
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What kind of real critics,
barb? You mean the pros that write reviews?
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barbiq
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yes, the pro's that review for
mags and newspapers
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Mary Rosenblum
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Only if it's someone whose
comments in general seem to work, or if they seem appropriate for your
work. :-) There's a lot of politics in reviewing.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But if you agree with this
reviewer's reviews most of the time and he says your opening is
weak...maybe it is.
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xana
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If you are writing a mystery, it
probably helps to have a helper editor who LIKES mysteries - anyone else
will find fault where none exists
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's a good point, Xana.
Actually, you will get your best comments from a critiquer who reads within
that genre.
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Mary Rosenblum
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SF is a great example. We
write with the expectation that our readers know and are interested in
things like space travel and si
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Mary Rosenblum
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science in general.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If someone picks up one of my
books who only reads contemporary romances, that person is going to have a
hard time.
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janecj333
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The advice from critique groups
and workshops can help with a specific piece of writing, I've found. IMO,
however, a broad knowledge of writing mistakes can be had just by reading
in your genre. It is a huge education to spot the slow parts, the wordy
parts, in the famous writers' works.c.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Believe me, critiquing other
people's work is a great way to improve your own editing.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You will be able to see
problems in others long beo
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Mary Rosenblum
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before you'll recognize the
same weaknesses in your own stories or articles
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onepozy
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any thoughts on editing down to
make word count, I tend not to want to cut parts of a story
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Mary Rosenblum
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One, if you have to cut more
than ten percent of your story, you probably shouldn't consider that story
for this market.
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Mary Rosenblum
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There is a huge difference
between tightening a wordy story and significantly shortening that story.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You can't take a 7000 word
plot and cut 2000 words out of it and have a good 5000 word story.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Not if the original plot
needed to be told in 7000 words.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You can change the plot so
that now the story can be told in 5000 words quite well.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It is the plot that determines
how long your story should be.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Now that is not saying that
you might not need to cut 700 - 800 words out of it because your prose is wordy.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It simply depends on your
plot.
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pook
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MAry, is the novel course
appropriate for a fictionalized biographical type story?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Pook, it depends on whether
your biographical story really would make an engaging novel.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It will be engaging to YOU but
will it be engaging to 30,000 strangers?
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Mary Rosenblum
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You're probably better off
writing it as a personal memoir.
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barbiq
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Mary, when do you know that your
story should be more...like a novel?
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Mary Rosenblum
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A novel is a very large story
with subplots and multiple issues at stake generally.
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Mary Rosenblum
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A short story is more focused,
tends to revolve around a single conflict and involve a single main
character.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's merely a matter of scale.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Let's talk about cutting words
versus cutting story.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Cutting story means taking out
whole scenes, character interactions, because you need to get that 8000
words story down to 5000 words.
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Mary Rosenblum
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This is sort of like
Cinderella's sister cutting off her toes to fit the glass slipper. Not a
good solution.
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Mary Rosenblum
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BUT...your average novice
writer might take nearly 2000 words out of that 8000 word story simply by
finding a stronger way to do each sentence.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You don't remove scenes, you
don't remove content, you simply remove excess words.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You take out the 'there was'
the 'is', 'were', 'was going to' and all those other weak constructions.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You get rid of the adverbs and
use stronger more vivid verbs.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Nearly every novice writer
needs to learn to write tighter.
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Mary Rosenblum
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(For those of you taking the
Breaking into Print course, read Zinsser).
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pook
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What about a screenplay?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Screenplay is nothing BUT
plot. You have to reshape the plot if you want to shorten the screenplay.
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Mary Rosenblum
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This is the Lunchbox Forum
with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about wearing the editor's hat today. If you're new here, remember
that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach
me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send
bar to reach me. I take questions out of order, so be patient. I'll get to
yours.
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teppu
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do you keep the word limit in
mind as you write the first draft? Or just edit out later?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh, I start way before that,
teppu.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I keep the word limit in mind
as I PLOT the story. I'm not going to edit out plot -- that weakens the
story.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The plot is an integral
structure. Like an arched bridge, it tends to fall down if you lop sections
out of it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I ...like most pros...get
invited to write for anthologies a lot.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I always get a word limit --
and when they say 8000 words they want 8000 words, not 5000 or 10,000.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I plot accordingly. I might
have to figure out a shorter way to get to my climax if I have a fairly
tight limit. Me, I like 10,000 words. :-)
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pook
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can't screenplay have good
characters?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Sort of, but that's mostly the
actors' job, pook. YOu simply describe the type of person, the actor
creates the character.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's why I don't like to
write screenplays. :-)
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copper
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When editors give a word limit,
how close do we need to be. For example, I just wrote an article with 791
words that was supposed to be 800. Is that OK, or do I need to come up with
those last few words?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Not at all, copper. You can
figure plus or minus 10 percent.
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Mary Rosenblum
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And usually you can stretch it
a bit either way, if you don't go overboard.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Shorter is usually better than
longer since the editor can fill up a bit of extra space
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Mary Rosenblum
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but may not be able to fit all
your prose into an issue without adding an extra page (a BIG expense in the
print universe) if you go way over.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The epublishing world is a bit
more lax about length, although most ezines do have length guidelines.
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geezer
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Can you expand on plotting and
word length? How much maybe %-wise allocated for each part of the story and
maybe for each kind of story?
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's not that cut and dried,
geezer. Fiction writing really isn't formulaic, except maybe for a few
category romance lines.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Every story has a natural
length and it needs to be that length.
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Mary Rosenblum
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When you are new at this,
you're not going to do very well at estimating length when you plot.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That comes from much
experience.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I know how many words it's
going to take me to cover this particular plot...I'll be able to figure out
how many scenes I'll have
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Mary Rosenblum
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and I know how many words,
roughly, a scene will take.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I learned that by doing it a
LOT.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You're going to figure out by
trial and error (or the summary exercises in the LR course) how long a
story is going to be when you write it.
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xana
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It might be good training in
self editing to try some minimalist fiction in one of the experimental magazines
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Mary Rosenblum
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Write flash fiction.
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Mary Rosenblum
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There is no better way to
learn how to 'focus down' a sprawling plot. It's a GREAT exercise and you
might sell a few pieces, too.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That seems to be the hardest
step for novice fiction writers -- learning how to control plot and thus
control length.
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xana
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Hey, how about something like
that for a newsletter prompt?
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's exactly what the last
prompt was all about, xana.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I wanted the climax scene of a
story with as much implied 'larger story' as possible. That's how you
shorten a story.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You start as close to the
climax as you can.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I do design these prompts to
teach you all something you know.
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info
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Speaking of LR Course exercises,
I noticed in the novel they have, x amount of words for chapters. I was
wondering if this is a general rule of thumb for chapter word count in the
novel world.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's a good long chapter,
info.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Many are more like 2500 rather
than 4000 or even less. A lot of thrillers use very short chapters.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Mostly it was a matter of
figuring cost for the course. You rarely need more than 4000 words in a
chapter. Less is usually better
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Mary Rosenblum
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since your shorter dramatic
arcs tend to increase pacing, which most first time novels could use.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's simply an upper limit.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Everyone comes up with his or
her own chapter rhythms.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Mine run about 15-18 pages
usually.
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Mary Rosenblum
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My friend Mike Moscoe, equally
published, runs 8 - 10 pages for his.
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Mary Rosenblum
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When you're editing, once
you've deal with plot arc issues, you're happy with the way your scenes
work, then focus on words.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Really focus on removing those
excess words, using vivid verbs, getting rid of adverbs and the 'to be'
verbs.
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Mary Rosenblum
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This is all polishing and
tightening, but it makes your work much stronger.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So essentially, start with the
big issues -- plot shape, characterization -- then work scene by scene, to
improve visuals and action, and finally sentence by sentence to improve the
strength of the read.
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Mary Rosenblum
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When you find that you are
doing nothing more than substuting one word for another QUIT!
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Mary Rosenblum
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You can do that forever and
that type of word choice is not going to affect the saleability of your
movel.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Novel.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Or short story.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Or nonfiction piece for that
matter.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Once you are satisfied with
the structure of the piece, the organization, the characterization, once
you have made the langauge as strong and tight as you can...
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Mary Rosenblum
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you are done. Move on.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Don't fall into the trap of
endlessly revising.
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Mary Rosenblum
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As I said, it's a great way to
avoid rejections and polishing will not affect the saleability of your
work.
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morgangray
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Who polishes?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well, you really do need to do
some editing. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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Remember that the writing
world is HIGHLY competitive.
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Mary Rosenblum
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And the myth that the idea
will sell the story and the editor will fix the writing is just that -- a
myth.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Ideas are a dime a dozen. It's
how the idea is written that sells the story.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well thanks for coming, all.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript in
the usual place: Writing Craft :Forum Transcripts.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Have a good week, all!
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