|
mary rosenblum
|
Hello all.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I hope you've had a good week.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about critique
groups. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November)
, more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions
you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If any of you missed my
interview with Rhonda Penders of Wild Rose Press last night, it's worth
checking out if you write Romance.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
They're an idealistic
publisher that is very willing to work with new writers...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and they offer a wide array of
subgenres, although they really are publishing romance.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I wanted to talk about writers
groups and critique groups a bit today
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
They're so very useful, but
they can be a negative influence on your writing a well...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
so it pays to be a tough
consumer. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Most of the writers
conferences offer a writers workshop in conjunction with the conference,
usually for an extra fee to cover mailing and distribution.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And they can be a real double
edged sword!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Just because someone is a
published pro does NOT mean that person is a good critic or able teacher!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And the tendency is to believe
that since he/she is published he/she must KNOW.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Many writers have VERY narrow
opinions about what is 'good' and 'bad' in fiction or their genre...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
so if you get something
extreme....don't necessarily believe it unless two other readers give you
the same feedback.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Let's talk a bit about what
makes a good critique.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
What is it that you, the
critiquer, are trying to do?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
What you're doing when you
critique a story is to help this author tell THIS story as well as it can
be told.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You may want that author to
tell a different story.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But that's not what the author
wants to do. So work on THIS story rather than telling that person to
change it. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
By change it, I mean change it
in a huge, sweeping, plot manner, not fix problems. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If that author is telling a
love story and you think it would make a much better father/son story,
fine. YOU write the father/son story.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Work on making this love story
stronger. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about critique
groups. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November)
, more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions
you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It's a good idea to start with
what I call 'first read comments' as you read through a manuscript.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Make notes in the margin: Who?
What? Why? Where? I'm lost!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
These are helpful to the
writer since this is where you had questions. Maybe she answered that
question in the next paragraph, but this is where you, the reader,
wondered.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Does the character seem
consistent?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Did you understand why he/she
said and did the things he/she did?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If not, put a question in the
margin.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It's very easy to think that
you're making your character's actions transparent. It is much harder to
actually make them transparent...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and we all know our characters
and stories FAR too well.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
So we miss things...we know
what happens. We need our critiquers to tell us 'uh uh, that's a hole'.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Don't , don't, don't forget to
tell the writer what he/she has done well.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That writer may have no clue
that his description is really vivid and powerful.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
How will he know if you don't
tell him?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
So.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
What should you expect from
your critque group or critquer?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
All of the above.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Critiques sting. Nobody ever
wants to hear that his/her story is not perfect. No, I don't want to hear
it either. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But of course it's NOT
perfect, and I know my story and my characters FAR too well to have any
questions about what is happening.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But my readers may well wonder
about things.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And I need the clear eyes of
my critiquers to point at holes and places where I didn't make myself
clear.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
When you give your story to a
group or an individual to read you want to avoid two things.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You don't want to do
everything that your critiquers suggest...that'll ruin your story for sure!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And you don't want to
'explain' every comment and do none of them.
|
|
myshell
|
Are you or have you been part of
a critique group?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Oh, many, myshell.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I would never send out
anything without out comments from at least three different people...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and I have belonged to a
variety of groups over the years.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
By explain every comment, I
mean that you say, 'oh but that's because'...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and don't change anything. :-)
|
|
myshell
|
Even as experienced as you are,
you find a group necessary ?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Of course, my. I see a LOT
more than I did when I was a novice,that's for sure. But as I said, I'm WAY
too involved...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
with my story. It all is clear
and obvious to ME, but I know everything.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
A reader may not see
everything I think that reader will see, or make the leaps I expect readers
to make...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
so I want someone who doesn't
know the story to read it. And tell me any place they go 'huh'?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I don't have as many 'huh?'s
as many of you may...
|
|
myshell
|
I figured I just felt that was
being a novice and insecure.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I know of almost no
professional writers who do not give their work to a few readers, my.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You simply can't see the
weaknesses without putting that mss aside for weeks or months to 'cool
off'...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and when you're making your
living doing this, you don't want that mss on the shelf for weeks or
months!
|
|
tory
|
I'm laughing aabout needing
crituqe groups,Mary. Even my critique group was so familiar with my the
story on my sequel that they missed the fact I had left the reader clueless
as to where the story was set. That took fresh eyes.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
ah, and this is one weakness
of critique groups....
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
They do become familiar after
a time.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Unless you bring in new
people, they get to know your voice and your habits of prose...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and you lose some of that
freshness.
|
|
geezer
|
In a SS I had 3 hours + the tide
coming in and going out. To me that's 15 hrs. ALL my readers thought only 3
hours had passed.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And that's one of the values
of a group, geeze. To you, a 'tide' is twelve hours. To many readers who do
not live by the sea, they simply...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
think of 'tide' as waves. And
therefore three hours.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you are an expert in
something, too familiar with it, it's easy to confuse readers.
|
|
myshell
|
How do we find a reputable
online group?
|
|
myshell
|
Especially for children's
author's?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
YOu can try googling, you can
look for ads in newsletters or writers websites.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You can simply START one.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You're all welcome to use the
private room feature in the chat room here to meet and do a live chat
discussion.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Send the stories out via email
ahead of time...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and give your comments in live
chat.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But give some thought to
groups before you join one.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
What do you expect from a
group? What SHOULD you expect from a group?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You want feedback that helps
you strengthen your story.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you get some good insights
from at least some members of the group, good.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If none of the people in the
group read the type of fiction your write and only tell you a: they don't
read it so don't know how to critique it, or b: tell you to write something
different...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
you're probably wasting your
time.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If it's always negative, try
not to run over anyone as you bolt for the door!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Some groups pride themselves
on a 'no pain no gain' mantra and deliver harsh, negative comments.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
As I said...try not to leave
footprints on anyone as you leave.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
thorough does not equal
negative.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And negative does not equal
good.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you constantly leave
inspired, ready to work...that's good.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you leave wondering why
you're even trying...just don't go to the next meeting or ever again.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The group has to work for
YOU>
|
|
lore alley
|
I've started a local group,
Mary, and was wondering if you can give suggestions for making it a good
one :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
There are some things that
seem to work well to create long lived groups.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
A wide variety of members is
good. Everyone has his/her own blind spots, and the more people you
include, the wider the range of comments you will get.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Some critiquing rules will
help keep you on track.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Set a time limit for every
critique, or the long winded will keep you there all night!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Enforce the time limit. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Have people read the story
ahead of time and write comments on the mss, so that they only need to 'hit
the high points' at the session.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
most groups distribute the
next session's stories when they meet, or you can email them to others at
least a few days before the meeting.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Come up with a few rules.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
How long a submission can you
present? A whole novel or a chapter at a time?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Make clear 'rules of
etiquette' and enforce them, too.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It's a good idea to require
the person whose story is being critiqued to be silent until everyone is
done...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and then that person has a set
amount of time to rebut. Otherwise, you can bog down the sesion with
endless...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
'but what I was trying to do
was...' rebuttals.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Many long lived groups have an
application process...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
where the applicant must sit
out at least one session and say nothing, so that person gets a sense...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
of how the group operates.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Then he/she contributes a
story and it is critiqued.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And only then does the
applicant find out if he/she has been accepted.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That way, you don't end up
with someone who dissolves into tears when critiqued, who writes at a
level...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
taht is out of keeping with
the group, or who delivers a really nasty critique. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You and your applicant have
time to decide if this is going to work.
|
|
lore alley
|
if we pass out mss, should I
make some "rules" clear, like don't pass others' mss around to
random people, post them on a website, etc? not sure if everyone there is
clear on that
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It is a good idea not to post
mss on public websites...your rights can be compromised that way.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
As to passing them around, you
can make that rule. Remember you own that copyright when you hit save...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But it depends on whether you
worry about who others will pass mss to .
|
|
charie'
|
Are there limits to how many
times you can submit a 'fixed' mss for critique?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That's a rule you can make if
you choose...one revision only ,say.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
In our current off and on
group, if someone wants to submit a revise and it's LONG, that person asks
if others mind.
|
|
cosmos
|
How do you make the copyright
sign on your computer?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You don't need a copyright
sign, cosmos. And that's only appropriate if you register the copyright.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The copyright is automatic.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You only need to register it
if you believe that you may be involved in a lawsuit over it one day.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Believe me, theft of written
work is very very rare.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
One thing I have found over
the years...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
it is a very good idea to have
one or a few people who 'run' the group.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You can elect them formally or
it can be the person who starts the group.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But having a clear
'leadership' makes it easier to set and enforce those rules and to handle
interpersonal tensions.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It is very hard to ask someone
to leave a group. Hurt feelings result.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That's why, especially if your
group is big and gaining a lot of local attention, an application process
is a good idea.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
We have a very long lived well
organized group down in Eugene. They have a formal application process and
it has served them very well.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It's a BIG group, too.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about critique
groups. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November)
, more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions
you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
One issue with groups is
genre.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
There are benefits to mixing
genres, but drawbacks, too.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If your critiquer doesn't read
in your genre...including NF here...he/she won't give the most accurate
critique.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But you get different
perspectives. :-)
|
|
tory
|
Our group really benefits from
having a few men. Really helps get the male POV more accurate.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Oh yes. I don't think I've
ever belonged to a group that didn't mix genders.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Believe me, feedback on your
male or female POV is very useful. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Expertise is a big benefit of
critiquers.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I often give a mss to someone
who has expertise in a particular field.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
A retired cop used to read my
mysteries and tell me if I got my 'cop talk' right. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
An ex military friend reads
any of my fiction that uses military or military organizations.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
A physicist reads my hard SF
and catches me on my science from time to time (but not very often).
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
When you meet someone who
likes to read the type of story you write and has a useful area of
expertise...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
ask that person if he/she
would read a mss, and offer an aknowledgement in exchange.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That's what aknowedgment pages
are fore.
|
|
writermom
|
Hi I know I'm late and I hope no
one has asked this I just had an agent agree to rep me but before they
start they want me to pay for a critique is this common practice
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
No, it's rather the earmark of
a scam, writer. I'm sorry.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
A lot of scam agents will do
that, and split the fee with the critiquer.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Is this agent a member of AAR?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Association of Author's
Representatives?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Same thing with an 'agent' who
tells you that you should pay a 'book doctor' to fix your book.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
A lot of scammers present
themselves as agents.
|
|
writermom
|
I haven't actually talked to the
agent yet I was working with called New York Litererary Agents
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Writer, I just went to
Predators and Editors and looked them up.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Here is what I found.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
New York Literary Agency, The:
Strongly not recommended. Also a Top Twenty worst according to Writer
Beware. A literary agency. A division of The Literary Agency Group.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Always look up any
editor/agent/publisher on Predators and Editors.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
They constantly update it.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
predators and editors
webpage
|
|
writermom
|
so I should find a way to get
out of it
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Just write them a letter and
say you are withdrawing the mss.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Send it registered mail.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
They'll get the message.
|
|
foxx
|
Do you pay for critiques or
reading?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
No, I never have, foxx.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Why?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you know a professional who
has done good things for the work of someone you know, then paying a pro
editor may work for you...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
if you really need it but do
you?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Lots of other novice writers
exist who need to swap critiques. :-0
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Those are free. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I do occasionally send a
student to a reputable professional editor, but only when they are not
English speakers and have a good story...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
that simply needs language
editing.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I've only done that once or
twice.
|
|
geezer
|
Could you tell the differences
between "reading" and "critique"?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Semantics.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
A critique...by whatever
name...is a list of comments from someone who read the work critically...ie
looking for strengths and weaknesses.
|
|
idwins
|
Any drawback to having your
spouse critique for you?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Welll...just how much DO you
value your marriage? LOL
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Nothing if it works.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I do know a couple of writers
whose spouse is their first reader and critquer.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If it's negative, if it's a
means to put you down. Don't go there.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Don't forget, you have an
intense personal relationship with this person, and writing is a very
personal thing.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Other agendas may enter into
the equation.
|
|
geezer
|
I count the number of yawns as
my hubby reads. If it's under three I figure it's OK.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
LOL.
|
|
charie'
|
My husband is a good critiquer
but it is harder to accept his comments as impersonal.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And that's the real issue. You
have that personal relationship and it's harder not to react personally to
those comments.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If it's Jack from the critique
group, his comments may sting for a bit, but what do you really care? He's
a fat jerkafter all. :-)
|
|
idwins
|
Isn't it awsome when they LOVE
it though?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It's awesome when ANY reader
loves it! that's why I DO this.
|
|
charie'
|
Another etiquette tip for a
group is to make certain you only critique the mss. not the author
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Good point, charie.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Especially if the author
expresses political and social opinions you don't agree with, it's easy to
let that sentiment bleed into your comments.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It is quite hard to be
objective if you strongly disagree with something that the author
expresses, particularly...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
a social or political stance
that you find highly objectionable.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
In that case, recuse yourself.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I'm sorry, I just won't be
able to do a good job here.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
End of comment.
|
|
charie'
|
Don't bring up points from past
mss unless it shows a trend in the author's works
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Yes. The only work under
consideration is THIS one..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Unless, as charie says, you
see a trend. (Did you realize the guys in your stories always get bitten by
a dog?)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And...a really subtle but
really really important caveat.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you find yourself writing
for the group rather than the reader...time to quit.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It is very easy to start
writing work that your critque group loves.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Great praise.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But are they selling? Are you
improving as a writer?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I don't tend to stay in groups
very long, unless they get a lot of turnover in members.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Pretty soon I already know
what every person will say before I even sit down with 'em.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And then it's time to move on.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
although I must say, I find
that in -person groups, either in reality or in a live chat situation...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
tend to be more valuable than
by-mail exchanges.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You have the synergy of the
group mind.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
One person suggests something,
another adds to that, and you get something entirely new...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
that neither person might have
exactly suggested on his /her own.
|
|
lore alley
|
completely off topic but... is
there anything Wrong with trends?? I have an embarrassing lot of them...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
What do you mean by trends,
lore?
|
|
lore alley
|
I write about a lot of
medical-type trauma... or brothers... or kids who end up with PTSD...
things like that
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Well, if enough of them end up
published, a reviewer or two will probably comment on them, but if readers
like them, that's fine.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Reviewers love to notice your
trends and comment on them. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
We ALL have trends.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you read a lot of stuff by
the same author you'll find that writer's little personal idiosyncracies.
:-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Copy editors are even worse
than reviewers at telling you what you do regularly. LOL
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
One place to look for writers
groups...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
is on your library's bulletin
board.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Many libraries offer free
meeting rooms for groups like that...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Another place is a writers
organization.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Willamette Writers here in
Portland publishes a member newsletter and people announce writers
groups...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
either new ones or simply
meeting times for groups that are open to new members.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Sma.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Small bookstores, the
independents, often have bulletin boards with...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
book and writing news on them
and you may find group information there.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
OR...make a flyer and post it
in those places.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Find a library meeting room
you can use and start one.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If nothing else, make friends
with folk here and swap stuff.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Giving your work to three or
four different readers won't give you the group synergy, but you'll get
three or four critiques.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You'll get your best feedback
from other writers, but a critical reader, one who has opinions about waht
he/she has read...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
makes a good critiquer too.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I give all my mysteries to the
owner of a mystery bookstore to read. If I can keep her guessing until the
end, it's ready to go out. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
She doesn't help much with
craft, but she's great on the clues and red herrings!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
A good critiquer or three will
do more to improve your writing quickly...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
than nearly anything else you
can do.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And critiquing another's
writing forces you to pay attention to how that person is writing...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and you'll find you can see
problems in someone else's work before you can see those same problems in
your own.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The only thing that has
improved my writing more than critiquing has been teaching writing. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Well this has been a fun
Oregon Hour.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Do join us Sunday for our
casual chat.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Same time same place.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Have a good weekend, all!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I''ll post the transcript in
the usual place.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Writing Craft: Forum
Transcripts.
|
