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Mary Rosenblum
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Hello all.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Welcome to our Tuesday
Lunchbox Forum
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Mary Rosenblum
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We're talking about writing
fantasy today.
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Mary Rosenblum
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This is a popular genre with a
strong crossover to romance and mainstream readers -- and the mainstream
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Mary Rosenblum
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component has been vastly
increased since the advent of the Harry Potter Phenomenon.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So at this point, it has a
reasonable readership....beats SF by a mile, that's for sure!
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Mary Rosenblum
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Of course that means
publishers get a LOT of it, too. Slush piles are full of Really Bad
Fantasy.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So you really want to avoid
being among that number. Believe me, a strong, well written fantasy will
catch an editor's eye.
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Mary Rosenblum
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One reality in the fantasy
universe is that, as with romance, it is primarily a novel genre.
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Mary Rosenblum
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By that I mean that you don't
have a lot of short fiction markets that get reviewed.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Most of the fantasy short
fiction markets, apart from Realms of Fantasy and Magazine of Fantasy and
SF (which is very whimsical), the markets are mainly
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Mary Rosenblum
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small press and ezines.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So if you're seriously
interested in writing fantasy, you should really work in the novel form, if
you can.
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Mary Rosenblum
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And, to be honest, considering
the time and effort spent to build that fantasy universe from the ground
up, you might as well do a big story and make it a novel!
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Mary Rosenblum
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I do see some pretty common
weaknesses in novice fantasy.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The most common weakness I see
is too many characters.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yes, you can find long running
series that feature five or six or seven main characters.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But that doesn't mean it's
going to work for your book, and to be honest, editors get a lot of
negative feedback about those books.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Same thing with the huge slice-of-bologna
series where the story requires three books to tell and if you pick up book
two first, you're lost.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yes, JRR did that, and no,
that does not mean you're going to be able to do that.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The third weakness I see all
the time is the Generic Fantasy.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You have a medieval level of
tech -- swords, spears, etc -- and you have a Tolkienesque world -- elves,
orcs, goblins and the like.
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Mary Rosenblum
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A lot of that comes from role playing
games but guess where those game-writers got their universe?
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Mary Rosenblum
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All these things get you an
almost certain 'no thanks' from major publishers. They are all major
weaknesses.
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reece
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I've been writing a fantasy
adventure that I intend to have a sequel with two main characters and four
supporting charactors is that too much?
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Mary Rosenblum
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It depends how you handle the
characters, reece. If you focus this book on your two main characters and
your supporting characters are just that -- supporting, yo'ure fine.
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Mary Rosenblum
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What I mean by too many main
characters is where the author focuses equal attention on those five or six
characters, so that the reader is popped from POV to POV and rarely spends
more than a single chapter or even just a scene with one character.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That simply prevents the
readers from caring much about any one character. If the plot is powerful
enough to maintain the novel that can be okay
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Mary Rosenblum
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but fantasy plots tend to be
one of a number of 'tried and true' plot forms, so that is hard to pull
off.
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ltsonya
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Mary, how would you recommend
introducing your fantasy world? The first page, sentence, etc we don't want
to throw in a lot of details. How do we know what's a right mixture?
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Mary Rosenblum
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The first chapter of any
fantasy or SF novel should make you sweat, sonya. By that I mean
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Mary Rosenblum
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it should be VERY hard work.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The best way to bring your
reader into the universe is to give your MC something interesting and
active to do and then layer in details of the universe
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Mary Rosenblum
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as revealed through that
character's actions.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You'll see that start a lot in
fantasy novels if you think about it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The POV may enter a tavern and
get involved in a brawl after a bit, for example, and maybe this ties in
only peripherally
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Mary Rosenblum
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to the main plot, or maybe it doesn't
tie in at all but by the time the POV has talked with people, argued,
gotten in a fight and maybe run for his or her life...
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Mary Rosenblum
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we have seen the town and
gotten a sense of the culture and you've had ample opportunity to hint at
backstory.
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reece
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What if yor main characters
aren't born yet?
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Mary Rosenblum
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To be honest, reece, unless
you're doing a brief prologue, I suspect you're starting this novel way too
soon.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You might need to start with
the beginning of your main external plot.
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ltsonya
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i've found one of the most
difficult parts is the character giving information, but making it not seem
out of place. she's not going to think about how cool her magic is because
she has it everyday of her life.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh, no kidding, sonya!
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Mary Rosenblum
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I struggle with that in every
story or novel in SF or fantasy!
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Mary Rosenblum
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And you have to construct
external pressures that reveal what you need to reveal.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Challenge your MC for
example...she is mugged in the marketplace and has to use her magic to
escape.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Something like that.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You often need to construct
specific situations that will reveal what you need to reveal.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's where skill comes in.
:-) Nobody said this was easy!
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reece
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I did do a prologue but I was
told many people dont read them
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Mary Rosenblum
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That would be me. :-) Many
people do not, reece.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Call it chapter one and make
it a prologue, then skip to your main plot with your main characters.
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andi
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how long would a prologue be
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Mary Rosenblum
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I would make it as brief as
possible, andi. If your readers get too involved in that prologue you may
kick them out of the story when you skip to your main story.
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seigfried007
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Or use a fireball to light the
oven after much frustration with flint-n-steel...
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's another good way to
reveal magic and you see it often in fantasy. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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The stable boy who uses magic
to clean the stall when his boss isn't looking -- that sort of thing.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Okay, so we have three common
novice weaknesses:
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Mary Rosenblum
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1: Too many main characters
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Mary Rosenblum
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2: Huge, slice-of-bologna
stories that require three books or more to complete the plot arc.
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Mary Rosenblum
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3: Generic Tolkien/roleplaying
universes
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ltsonya
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i tend to get caught up in my
research and world creation that I never actually get to the story. when is
a good rule of thumb to start writing and figure out the rest as you go?
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's a great delaying
tactic, sonya. :-) I know a number of people successfully using it right
now.
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Mary Rosenblum
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My own rule is that I start
when I have enough of the universe in place in my head to get through my
first chapter.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Then I'm researching like mad
as I write, but I'm researching what I need to know, not a whole lot of
very cool and useful facts that I don't
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Mary Rosenblum
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need to know and that require
months of time.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That means -- to me -- I have
to have the rules of the magic down solid, I have to know how my world is
structured
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Mary Rosenblum
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in terms of power and
economics.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I have to know what the major pressures
on this society are -- is it in transition from an agrarian society to a
trade based one? Is it under pressure from a large
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Mary Rosenblum
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and aggressive neighbor?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Is it under pressure from
economics -- the current system isn't able to support its residents?
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Mary Rosenblum
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That sort of thing.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Those issues should be part of
or at least intertwined with your main plot anyway.
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seigfried007
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i've found that readers remember
the humorous bits long after the random mugging. and that the more powerful
the character, the less he'll think of how cool anything related to his job
is unless it surpasses his own abilities. the archmage doesn't think anything
of wiping out a tribe of badies much less starting a fire (and therefore
the author shouldn't waste much time talking about how he does it) the
brevity of the description speaks for the ease (and therefore coolness)
much more than the wordy description
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Mary Rosenblum
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Actually, the author should
really avoid describing it as much as possible, seig. :-) Just let the
character's actions reveal as much as you can and let the readers figure it
out.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Just make sure they CAN figure
it out.
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barbiq
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So before you start writing you
write tons of info?
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Mary Rosenblum
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In fantasy and SF, more than
any other genre except historical fiction, you really need to barb.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you just plunge into your adventures
and fill in details as they come, you will likely end up with something
that
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Mary Rosenblum
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has a host of inconsistancies
in it. And even if you don't mind inconsistencies in the fictional worlds
you visit when you read
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Mary Rosenblum
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most readers DO and they're
very good at spotting them.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Editors know this.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Let's talk sales. A lot of
what appeals to the average reader and a lot of what sells the first book
by a new author is the richness and dimensionality of the world.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If it's just another Asprin or
Jordan or Anthony universe....the readers are going to read Aspirin or Jordan or Anthony.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you can come up with
something that is unusual, you'll really get attention.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You do have theme series --
the Dungeons and Dragons books for example -- where they ARE all alike.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But unless you're writing for
a series like that, you are best off to create a world that is not like the
ones you have read.
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barbiq
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Are you better off not being
familar with other SF works?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh, goodness, you really need
to read widely in the genre if you want to write it, barb.
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Mary Rosenblum
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What I see a lot from people
who decide to write SF or fantasy but don't read it is that they come up
with something that is a hoary cliche in the genre!
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Mary Rosenblum
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To them it is fresh and new.
To the reader/editor, Star Wars has been done to death, thank you.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Or Lord of the Ring.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Let me give you an example.
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Mary Rosenblum
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A new writer joined the
writers group that a writer friend of mine belongs to.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Daniel Abraham.
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Mary Rosenblum
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He didn't have much out there
-- maybe one published story or so.
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Mary Rosenblum
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He came up with a fantasy
universe where poets created technology through their poems -- the word
made flesh, so to speak --
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Mary Rosenblum
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with resulting problems if the
created poem/technology got out of the poet's control.
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Mary Rosenblum
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He took his first novel to Tor
(the top SF/fantasy publisher) and Tor told him to give them proposals for
two more books, they wanted a series of three.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It was because his world was
new and unusual, not just a stock generic.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Spend a little time on your
universe.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Too often it is only a stage
set for the characters and action.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If your universe is PART of
your story, if it could not take place in any other universe, then it
matters and you have a stronger book.
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ltsonya
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you had mentioned one of the
weaknesses in new writers being were they have a trilogy. so is it better
for us to approach our first sale with one book, but have the option for
the story to continue? make the initial book a stand-alone?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh, sorry, sonya, you
misunderstood me.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Mystery and fantasy are big
series genres.
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Mary Rosenblum
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They LIKE series.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But you are much much much
better off to write a series where each book stands alone in terms of plot
arc
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Mary Rosenblum
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with a larger, overarching
plot arc that can continue on through the series.
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Mary Rosenblum
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When you offer a series to the
agent or editor do let them know that you could continue this.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If they like book one, they'll
probably ask to see proposals for other books.
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reece
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can you give any tips on writing
fight sequences with fantastical beasts where there might not be much
reference material
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well, if they're fantastical,
reece, you don't need reference material. YOU are making the rules
remember?
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Mary Rosenblum
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But you will have to create
scenes that let us see the critter in action and if the readers have never
seen this beastie before, that can be work.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you describe a horse
rearing, 99% of your readers are going to see more or less the same thing
with some variation in color and style perhaps.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But if you have a Salutaur
rearing....what do they see?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Nothing unless you show that
Salutaur to us!
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aelle
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What about Urban Fantasy?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Urban fantasy or Urban Noir is
pretty hot right now. It's tending to run to vampires and blood, but
there's lots of room for other things. It's actually my favorite fantasy
arena.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I'm not all that interested in
the classical Sword and Sorcery fantasy.
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barbiq
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Have you ever read a Fantasy
book that had too many plots?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh boy yes. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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This is particularly common in
authors who do large, sweeping, slice-of-sausage series.
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charie'
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Is Urban Noir the term for dark
fantasy in a modern setting?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yep.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Kat Richardson, my recent
guest, writes dark urban fantasy, although she's straddling the mystery
genre as well.
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Mary Rosenblum
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She published it as a
paranormal mystery series, but it's in the same general ballpark.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Fantasy does blend into horror
and at times the boundary is pretty hard to define.
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aelle
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Why give fantasy characters such
long unpronouncable names?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh, goody, aelle, thank you
for handing me my favorite soapbox. Pardon me while I set this down here
and step up... :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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There is NO reason NO NO NO
reason to do that!
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yes, you want your character
names to be interesting and reflect another culture
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Mary Rosenblum
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but are you really helping
your story if your readers come to a full stop every time you use a
character name as they struggle with the pronunciation?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Ann McCaffery got tons of
annoyed email about her very popular character Menolly from her Pern
series.
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Mary Rosenblum
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People didn't know how to
pronounce it. And that's a pretty simple name.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Those long, hard to pronounce
names will hurt you in the slush pile.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The editor knows he's going to
have to get you to change some of 'em and figures you
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Mary Rosenblum
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you'll fight it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It might actually cost you a
sale. It also screams amateur.
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ltsonya
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what would you say is a good
rule of thumb for names?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Even if they are long and
complex, give them a clear phonetic pronunciation.
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Mary Rosenblum
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And do avoid using two long
character names that begin with the same letter.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You WILL confuse readers.
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lore alley
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writhes in agony... does that
mean I really need to spell all my names phonetically? some of them are
based on Welsh which does have some pretty obscure pronunciations... what
to do?
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Mary Rosenblum
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There you're kind of stuck,
Lore. If you are writing something with an historical base, and it's Welsh,
yeah, you're just stuck.
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Mary Rosenblum
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No way around it. Pick the
ones like Daffyd that readers can guess at, at least.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Avoid those multi-consonant,
one vowel names. :-)
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aelle
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Like Sionon is Shannon?
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's not too bad, aelle.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Your readers may pronounce
Sionon as See-oh-non, but they'll pronounce it easily.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I get a lot of five syllable
names where every syllable is a guessing game. That really will slow down
readers.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Gwaffrydethalial
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Mary Rosenblum
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This is what I mean. Don't
laugh. It's a name that actually showed up in a story I got.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you want to use or need to
use an unconventional spelling system -- Welsh, for example, try to keep
the name short.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's when readers have to stop
and parse numrous syllables, as above, that you will seriously compromise
your scenes.
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lore alley
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sigh... let me guess...
pronunciation guides go the way of prologues and remain unread...
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Mary Rosenblum
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Don't even bother, lore.
Unless it's a very historical piece, destined for the historical market.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Even if you explain HOW to
proncounce something like my example, the reader eye will still stumble
over it and shatter the readers' engagement in the scene.
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charie'
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Are maps good or bad?
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Mary Rosenblum
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General consensus among
readers seems to be 'good'. I do like to visualize a universe and so do
many others.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's going to increase the
cost of publishing the book, so do them only if you need them, but if you
need a map include it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Make your world consistent.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you are going to base it
loosely on a culture, do so consistently.
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geezer
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I've heard character lists are
frowned on. However, I get lost in all the characters in Crichton's books.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Personally, I think that's a
weakness in Chrighton's books, and I'd avoid using that vast cast of
characters. But he is also writing in thriller form which uses a lot more
characters.
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charie'
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My urban fantasy diverged from
modern history about 600 years ago. Are things like city names going to be
the same?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh, cool, charie. That's alt
history, a completely separate subgenre. Six hundred years ago is the
1400s.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The name change is gonig to
depend on the dominant culture in the area.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Remember -- the most important
part of fantasy is really the universe.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you simply set fight scenes
and a quest to find some valuable magic item against a familiar fantasy
backdrop
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Mary Rosenblum
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you have a weak book.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Make your universe YOUR
universe and different from all those others out there.
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charie'
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I think that it is still more
urban fantasy than alt. history because of the magic in it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yeah, probably charie. :-)
That's really a marketing issue, but you're straddling both genres.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Watch out for the three most
common weaknesses that I mentioned at the start of the Forum and really
spend some creative time
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Mary Rosenblum
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and energy coming up with a
Really Cool Universe and you'll have something that will catch the
attention of an agent or editor.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Thanks for coming, all.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript of
the Forum in the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts
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aelle
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If your UF is in Dallas, do you need to
do world building?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Not if it's today's Dallas. But you'll
have to create your Rules of Magic.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Those need to be consistent,
too, you know.
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seigfried007
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when do you close the prompts? i
never saw a deadline
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Mary Rosenblum
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When I post the next
newsletter, seig.
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Mary Rosenblum
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There'll be more, don't worry.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Have a good week!
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Mary Rosenblum
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See you all tomorrow for our
casual chat.
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