Forum Transcripts

Writing in Genre 7/18/06

Event start time:

Tue Jul 18 12:06:11 2006

Event end time:

Tue Jul 18 13:38:31 2006



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Good morning all!

mary rosenblum

I hope you had a great weekend and aren't too hot out there.

mary rosenblum

I think we have the only cool temperatures in the country, out here on the northwest coast...

mary rosenblum

but tomorrow we join you in the hot weather.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

mary rosenblum

I thought I'd talk about genres, what they are, what they mean, and what the markets demand.

mary rosenblum

I think a lot of new writers have a hard time figuring out just what 'genre' actually means...

mary rosenblum

and it does get used in various ways with various subtexts. :-)

mary rosenblum

It's exact meaning is simply 'type'. A genre is a particular type of writing...mystery, romance, science fiction.

mary rosenblum

The designations were created to allow bookstores to group similar books on the shelf...

mary rosenblum

so that a reader who enjoys romances will find lots of romances in the same place and find it easier to buy several instead of one.

mary rosenblum

It also gets used as a sort of epthet at times by afficionados of 'literary fiction'...

mary rosenblum

and is used to mean 'fiction written with entertainment in mind'...as opposed to 'serious literary fiction'...

mary rosenblum

although why you can't combine 'serious' writing with entertainment has forever escaped me. :-)

mary rosenblum

But the genres have indeed evolved into species of their own.

drew2u

Do you have a favorite genre that you write?

mary rosenblum

Yes. Science Fiction is my first love, followed by fantasy and mystery.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about genre fiction today. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

mary rosenblum

LtSonya couldn't be here today and she sent me a question:

mary rosenblum

I know some genres, like fantasy and mystery, will have sequels or be part of a series. Is it better to have that first novel written with a proposal for the follow-up story or just keep writing until it's finished? That would be terrible to go through all that writing and then unable to sell that first book.

mary rosenblum

Yes, both mystery and fantasy love series books. But no, I personally wouldn't write an entire multibook series before trying to sell it.

mary rosenblum

While an editor may be willing to buy up to three books on the basis of the completed first book in the series...

mary rosenblum

it is almost unheard of for that editor to buy more than three...if the first three books don't 'take off' and sell well...

mary rosenblum

they aren't going to continue the series.

mary rosenblum

And even if you are an unpublished writer, they'll buy those additional books on proposal if you have the first one completed.

tarsus

Is literary fiction actually considered a separate genre? I really don't understand what literary fiction is.

mary rosenblum

Well, literary fiction writers would shrivel up and die at the mere thought that what they write might be considered 'a genre', but of course it is.

mary rosenblum

'Literary fiction' is ....like most of those 'genre divisions'...a blurry boundary.

mary rosenblum

But essentially it is fiction where the style, language, and literary technique are more important than what is going on in the book.

mary rosenblum

Or at least as important.

mary rosenblum

They rarely if ever have a 'conflict resolution' type plot, are often experimental in form.

mary rosenblum

They really aren't written for your average reader.

mary rosenblum

Probably every one of you reads in one or more genres preferentially.

mary rosenblum

You might enjoy mystery and suspense, or romance and mystery, or SF and fantasy, or horror.

xana

Is chick lit a genre?

mary rosenblum

Yes, it certainly is, xana. :-)

mary rosenblum

A strong new once actually.

mary rosenblum

Genres are not really cast in stone at all...the marketing universe constantly tweaks them and invents new ones.

mary rosenblum

The 'chick lit' phenomenon is sort of an outgrowth of romance that took off in its own direction...

mary rosenblum

and features stories mostly with younger protagonists who are strong, independent, and not always focused on romance first.

mary rosenblum

Although romance seems to play a strong role in most of them.

mary rosenblum

The market is constantly changing.

mary rosenblum

When you're starting out it's a good idea to write within the genres you read, at first.

mary rosenblum

Every genre has its own idiosyncracies. Certain things have been 'done to death', certain things are kind of expected by readers.

mary rosenblum

If you decide to write, say, in suspense because the publishers are paying big advances in suspense right now...

mary rosenblum

and you traditionally read romances for pleasure, you're probably not going to write a saleable supsense novel on your first attempt.

xana

How would you classify the Ya-Ya series?

mary rosenblum

I think that's a pretty good example of chick lit. :-)

mary rosenblum

And genres are not cast in stone.

mary rosenblum

Many books end up in different sections in different bookstores. :-) Drives authors with 'crossover' books nuts.

xana

Is there a fictional memoir genre? ;-)

mary rosenblum

That could be romance, mainstream, mystery...depends on what the fictional memoir writer included in her memoir. :-)

mary rosenblum

A memoir is no different than a fiction book written in first person, Xana...

mary rosenblum

it's just that 'memoir' means it is someone's memories of their real life.

mary rosenblum

To Kill a Mockinbird is a fictional memoir if you will. It is Scout remembering a pivotal summer of her life.

mary rosenblum

Some genres have a bunch of subgenres.

mary rosenblum

Mystery does.

mary rosenblum

SF has a few.

mary rosenblum

Although the SF boundaries are a bit more fluid than mystery.

mary rosenblum

Fantasy is a few fuzzy divisions and it blurs over into Horror.

tarsus

The line between SF and fantasy seems a bit blurry. I was told you cannot mix the two in one story. Why not?

mary rosenblum

You certainly can. :-) You just have to make it plausible...or very humorous.

mary rosenblum

What is problematical is when you mix bad fantasy with bad SF. Doesn't work well.

mary rosenblum

If you look at the VERY hot selling Pern series by Anne McCaffery, it is nothing more than fantasy (with dragons) set in a SF universe.

mary rosenblum

That series is still in print, still selling VERY well, and if it's not fantasy mixed with SF I don't know what is.

mary rosenblum

But of all the genres out there, I'd say that SF has the fewest rules and conventions. THat's partly why I like it.

tarsus

Now I get it. Thanks. You've made me very happy!

mary rosenblum

There is virtually nothing you can't actually do...the problem is that some things are very hard to do well...

mary rosenblum

so a lot of writing books will say 'you can't do this'...when what they really should say is, it is VERY hard to do this well.

drew2u

What in your opinion is the most difficult genre to write?

mary rosenblum

One that you never read in.

mary rosenblum

I'm being serious, drew.

mary rosenblum

No genre is more or less difficult than others...well, historical fiction DOES require a lot of research, but so does good hard SF.

mary rosenblum

But in terms of craft...it's the same from genre to genre. Powerful plots, rich, three dimensional characters, and settings with meaning and depth.

mary rosenblum

The difficulty is meeting reader expectations and not repeating earlier mistakes if you write in a genre you don't read it.

mary rosenblum

Many things become 'cliches' in a genre.

mary rosenblum

I would say that if you plan to write in a genre you don't read, you need to read and analyze at least ten current novels in that genre...

mary rosenblum

be able to say what they have in common, how they differ, and what similarities seem to be common from book to book within the genre.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about genre fiction today. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

tolkienlvr

Mary - I'm working on a YA novel but can't figure out what genre it fits best. It takes place in 2021 and has a lot to do with computer technology and space science. But though it's in the future the characters (teens) are all normal people; there are no aliens or special powers involved. The overarching plot is a high tech (teen friendly) murder mystery with a love story thrown in. Where do you think this fits best? Mainstream? Mystery? Ack! Do I have to pick a genre to market to a publisher?

mary rosenblum

You probably don't tolkien. This might interest mainstream YA publishers (all of whom require agented submissions) and Tor Books might be...

mary rosenblum

interested in it for their YA line, although I'd look at books in that line first...this may not have enough SF for Tor.

mary rosenblum

(Tor does not require agented submissions).

mary rosenblum

If you go with a YA agent, that agent will know the markets and where the book should be submitted. That's what you pay them for.

mary rosenblum

This is a nice example of a crossover book...it might fit equally well into YA mystery/suspense...or into YA SF.

mary rosenblum

Big question...is the POV a girl or a boy?

mary rosenblum

I ran smack into a real wall there...the few YA publishers who are publishing SF for YA believe that only boys read it, grrrr, and don't want books with female POVs.

tolkienlvr

MC is a boy with a lot of emotional problems who identifies with the greek mythological hunter Orion

mary rosenblum

You're fine then. :-)

mary rosenblum

Actually, I've seen quite a bit of YA that is set in a technological future...

mary rosenblum

not space ships but more high computer tech etc...they seem to be a hot subgenre for teen boys right now.

mary rosenblum

With lots of action/violence, I have to say.

xana

My older son has read sf with female povs ever since he was a kid

mary rosenblum

Yeah, Xana, but what happens in the real world and what the publishers believe don't necessarily have a lot in common, she says with a sigh.

tolkienlvr

Thanks! So - it's a crossover book, probably. Good. : )

mary rosenblum

Yes, and it's actually a good time to sell it.

mary rosenblum

This type of book seems to be getting a good share of the YA market right now.

payton

Is it a good idea to write for a bunch of genres to increase the chances of getting published or stick with one?

mary rosenblum

It's up to you. If you write comfortably in more than one, do it. :-)

mary rosenblum

I write in mystery and SF.

mary rosenblum

But when you're first developing a name with readers, it's a good idea to stick with that genre if you can...

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about genre fiction today. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

mary rosenblum

If readers liked your first mystery, say, they'll look for a new one from you...

mary rosenblum

but they'll forget you after a couple of years..

mary rosenblum

so if you go off and write, say a romance or two, and then bring out a mystery three years later...

mary rosenblum

you won't have built what is called 'momentum'...

mary rosenblum

that is a steady increase in readership.

mary rosenblum

Generally, your publisher will nag your for more books if they like the first one. :-)

mary rosenblum

They have a vested interest in seeing you succeed, after all. :-)

mary rosenblum

In fact, most book contracts have a 'first refusal clause' which means you have to submit your next book to them first.

xana

When I really like a book, I will look for others by the same author

mary rosenblum

Exactly.

mary rosenblum

Unless you're a very prolific writer it's hard to build name recognition in multiple genres. But if you can write and sell a couple of books a year, you can do it.

libertybell

Should you send simultaneous submissions when starting out or go for exclusive submission?

mary rosenblum

Generally the well regarded publishers in both traditional and small press houses will not accept simultaneous submisisons, liberty.

mary rosenblum

Although if you're going through an agent, they can and do simultaneously submit.

mary rosenblum

The 'quantity' presses...the publishers who publish virtually anything with the expectation that they will make a small profit...

mary rosenblum

if they publish LOTS of books that don't sell particularly well (mostly ebook)...generally don't care if you simultaneously submit.

tarsus

Do publishers care if they publish a writer they know is also being published by other publishers in different genres?

mary rosenblum

They may LOVE it tarsus, if you've got a hot seller in another genre.

mary rosenblum

Both my mystery and SF publishers mention that I'm published in the other genre in their PR stuff.

libertybell

Do you know if Comcast is quantity?

mary rosenblum

I don't know, liberty, tell me more. The only Comcast I know is the huge broadband company. They do have a magazine for the industry and customers, but that's all I know of.

mary rosenblum

Is that what you mean?

guestspeaker

Jay Lake here, just dropping in for a moment

mary rosenblum

Say hi to Jay.

mary rosenblum

He's my next guest...a week from this Thursday.

speckledorf

Hi Jay...welcome!!!

xana

Hi Jay

libertybell

Hey Jay

hidden fairy

hello Jay

grayalien

Hello, Jay.

tarsus

Hi, Jay.

beryl

hi, Jay, looking forward to next week

guestspeaker

next week will be fun

libertybell

Sorry, Comstar

mary rosenblum

Yes, liberty, comstar seems to publish most people who submit to them.

guestspeaker

Hey guys, nice to be here if only for a moment

paminnapa

little o/t but my 10 year old is writing a dinosaur book...and wants me to send it off when she is done with it...is there someone who takes children authors or should I go to Kinkos and do it....thanks ...Hi Jay

mary rosenblum

That's cool, Pam.

mary rosenblum

You know there are a few subsidized publishers of work BY children. I think I have a few posted in the New Market Updates...

guestspeaker

tap tap:: Is this thing on?

mary rosenblum

but most of those as I recall are magazines publishing stories and short work.

mary rosenblum

hey, Jake, you're on. :-)

mary rosenblum

Join in at will.

grayalien

What will Jay be speaking about?

mary rosenblum

Life the universe and everything. :-)

guestspeaker

the wonderful world of genre publishing!

guestspeaker

seriously, I'll be talking about small press, breaking in and such like

guestspeaker

plus, of course, whatever questions you all come up with

mary rosenblum

Jay has gone from writing a plethora of short fiction in just about every genre...to having what...three novels coming out? One out already.

guestspeaker

I've always got something to say

guestspeaker

ya

guestspeaker

four, actually

guestspeaker

just nailed down the sequel to TRIAL OF FLOWERS

mary rosenblum

Oh, cool! That's the Tor fantasy right?

guestspeaker

the Night Shade fantasy

guestspeaker

two Tor books in the MAINSPRING setting

xana

Topology and abstract algebra?

guestspeaker

two Night Shade books in the FLOWERS setting

mary rosenblum

And of course he'll talk about that, xana.

guestspeaker

well, topology is of course the science of spinning objects

guestspeaker

abstract algebra is best discussed in hushed tones by moonlight

libertybell

Jay, you typed "you all" Are you from the south?

mary rosenblum

(Southern Portland)

guestspeaker

heh

guestspeaker

spent most of my life in Texas before moving to Oregon

tolkienlvr

lol Jay about algebra! So right you are!

xana

Whisper a theorem in my ear...

speckledorf

From one Texan to another...how do you stand all the vastly different weather?:--)

guestspeaker

it's much cooler here

guestspeaker

and there's never water rationing

mary rosenblum

Not yet anyway...she says darkly.

guestspeaker

I've been writing more about Texas since I left it

guestspeaker

Oregon has given me a look back at Texas

libertybell

I miss Texas, particularly since I'm languishing in Mississippi weather nowadays.

grayalien

Is there a market for speculative fiction dealing specifically with UFO's and the paranormal? I like writing that.

mary rosenblum

Hey, Jay, since you're here..can you suggest any?

guestspeaker

sure

guestspeaker

Weird Tales, for example

guestspeaker

loves that stuff

guestspeaker

I'd try Interzone as well

guestspeaker

and in fact just sold a paranormal Texas story to REALMS OF FANTASY

keith harjes

how often do you go back to Texas to refreshen memory?

xana

Anything to do with the Bush family?

guestspeaker

keith, I still have lots of family there

guestspeaker

I'm back once a year or so

libertybell

Anything around San Antonio you write about?

guestspeaker

and Xana, not a Bush story, but rather about the secret rulers of the Earth -- faerie transported to Texas and Oklahoma

guestspeaker

libertybell, the closest to SA was a Kerrville story in my Texas collection, DOGS IN THE MOONLIGHT

mary rosenblum

I've got a couple of questions that got sent in before you showed up, Jay, we should include. We can argue if needbe. :-)

sewsteph

Do agents typically specialize in a certain genre?

mary rosenblum

Pretty much.

mary rosenblum

what does your agent handle, Jay? Besides SF?

guestspeaker

SF, romance, mystery

guestspeaker

she

guestspeaker

she's focused on several genres

guestspeaker

which is good insurance for her, as the business cycles

mary rosenblum

Who do you have? Not Martha, right?

guestspeaker

no, Jenn Jackson with DMLA

mary rosenblum

Yes, most agents handle three or four genres.

mary rosenblum

Some only a couple or one.

mary rosenblum

Oh here's a good one. :-)

xana

Is it generally esier to publish genre fiction?

guestspeaker

yeah, you want someone who focuses sufficiently on your genre(s) to know your markets well

guestspeaker

genre fiction -- not easier, no

mary rosenblum

As opposed to literary fiction, Xana means, I think. Your experience here?

guestspeaker

different

mary rosenblum

Yeah, I agree..

mary rosenblum

And name recognition does not necessarily carry over from one to the other...depending on where you have published.

xana

How different?

mary rosenblum

Different type of writing.

guestspeaker

name recognition can even be a negativer

mary rosenblum

Different reader expectations.

mary rosenblum

Yeah, alas.

guestspeaker

I don't list genre credits when submitting to lit markets

mary rosenblum

Genre is not respected by literary publishers for the most part.

keith harjes

do you share your short stories with agent before you submit

mary rosenblum

I don't. Do you, JaY?

guestspeaker

no -- heh

guestspeaker

she doesn't care

guestspeaker

maybe if I was selling to Granta or the New Yorker

guestspeaker

let me put it this way

guestspeaker

my first payment on my Tor contract exceeded any years short fiction income

mary rosenblum

Very few agents want to bother with short fiction, and why should you pay 'em 15% for something you can do yourself?

guestspeaker

and thte total contract is more than my lifetime income from short fiction

guestspeaker

I've sold a LOT of short fiction

guestspeaker

what Mary said

guestspeaker

not enough in it for the agent

xana

What are some of the better publishers for beginners, and which are toughest to deal with?

guestspeaker

publishers are interested in the story, not the author

mary rosenblum

What do you think, Jay? I don't think it's a matter of the publisher being difficult...

mary rosenblum

what Jay said.

guestspeaker

if you're capable of writing decent short fiction (some people are novelists by nature) it's an obvious place to start

guestspeaker

because the risk/reward cycle is much shorter

guestspeaker

you can get feedback, grow, change, experiment, all in manageable bursts

mary rosenblum

But do realize, a new breed of publisher exists who makes money from quantity sales and accepts most everybody...and that is not a way to build a career.

guestspeaker

I've been told it's no harder (in genre) to sell a first novel than it is to sell a first pro short

guestspeaker

I dunno

guestspeaker

ya

guestspeaker

what Mary said

guestspeaker

KNOW your publishers

guestspeaker

also depends on genre

guestspeaker

romance short fiction market is very thin

guestspeaker

there are no short thrillers, for example

guestspeaker

mystery and SF/F are pretty much it, that and the literary short fiction world

mary rosenblum

Jay, I heard something kind of scary yesterday, I might as well share it you're here...

guestspeaker

ok

mary rosenblum

which is that the quantity publishers in music and prose are making good profits as they sell at least 1 copy of 98% of their inventory...

guestspeaker

(then I have to split...)

guestspeaker

wow...

mary rosenblum

So the quantity verusus quality works for THEM. When the person was asked..

guestspeaker

I don'tknow whether to laugh or run screaming from the room

guestspeaker

there's this idea of Long Tail

guestspeaker

google that term

mary rosenblum

about the artists, the answer was 'they're doing it for passion's sake not for money'

guestspeaker

there is a world out there for microsales

guestspeaker

you don't want to be in it, not if you want a commercial career

guestspeaker

if you're writing for a specific passion, it might be a great place to be

guestspeaker

either one can be completely valid, but its important to understand your own goals

guestspeaker

guys, I should bow out

guestspeaker

see you all soon

mary rosenblum

Thanks for coming by, Jay.

mary rosenblum

It was fun.

guestspeaker

waves ::

mary rosenblum

See you a week from Thursdsay.

guestspeaker

bye y'all

mary rosenblum

waves backl

guestspeaker

looking forward to it!

xana

thanks for your input, Jay

libertybell

Example of a music "quantity" publisher you're talking about?

mary rosenblum

itunes.

mary rosenblum

That was the one specifically mentioned.

libertybell

Thanks, Jay. Mary, at least 1 sale from 98% of inventory; they bought it themselves?

mary rosenblum

very likely.

mary rosenblum

But it explains the growth of the ComStar and other quantity publishers.

mary rosenblum

They are making money, but the writer is swimming in a sea of...let's face it...mostly mediocrity.

keith harjes

swimming or treading water?

mary rosenblum

trying to stay afloat? :-)

libertybell

How disparaging

mary rosenblum

Disparaging or discouraging?

libertybell

"Disparaging word? Discouraging thought.

mary rosenblum

It is discouraging. It suggests that publishers will care less and less about the quality of what is published.

mary rosenblum

But where does that leave readers?

xana

As a reader i would intentionally avoid those publishers because I wouldn't want to wade through the crap in hopes of finding a treasure

mary rosenblum

This is why it's problematical to take the 'easy way' and publish with one of these...

mary rosenblum

if you aspire to a career. They are fine if you only want to get your book into print and sell it through your website.

speckledorf

But doesn't that make those of us who write well stand out more?

keith harjes

but those publishers might once and a while publish a

keith harjes

quality story

mary rosenblum

Yes, BUT...if I buy three books from ComStar and they are all awful...why would I buy another?

mary rosenblum

I'll look at the next title and think...they publish lousy stories.

mary rosenblum

They publish hundreds. Not just ComStar, many others.

mary rosenblum

I don't mean to pick on them alone.

keith harjes

blind squirrel and the nut

mary rosenblum

exactly.

mary rosenblum

I think that we will see a system of 'triage' arise that will let us find quality books...

mary rosenblum

as quantity publishing proliferates...but we don't have it yet.

speckledorf

Actually, I meant stand out in the slush piles of the more major publishers:--)

mary rosenblum

You ALWAYS stand out, speck.

mary rosenblum

You can tell whether the book is worth looking at seriously in about three pages or less...

mary rosenblum

And those books get passed on to the editor by the 'first reader'.

mary rosenblum

I'm talking MAJOR craft issues, not quality of the story itself.

xana

Reviewers are supposed to help us find good books

mary rosenblum

They are, but do you rely on reviewers for purchasing, xana?

mary rosenblum

I wonder how many do.

mary rosenblum

Other than on Oprah.

libertybell

The book that we talked about--Rand's 10% solution-- last week--do editors go by that?

mary rosenblum

Oh, sure. Rand is simply giving you some techniques to achieve what you NEED to achieve in craft.

mary rosenblum

You shoudn't need Ken's book. If you do, use it because you DO need it.

xana

I read some reviews and choose